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Post by min on Aug 4, 2016 17:09:12 GMT
What are you called there min? LOL - but I'm thinking about Old Nan
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 17:12:49 GMT
What are you called there min? LOL - but I'm thinking about Old Nan That's gone right over my head...
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Post by min on Aug 4, 2016 17:15:06 GMT
I'm getting ready to re-tell one of Old Nan's stories about what happened 200 years ago.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 4, 2016 17:16:12 GMT
What are you called there min? LOL - but I'm thinking about Old Nan I think he means your name on Westeros.
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 17:18:18 GMT
LOL - but I'm thinking about Old Nan I think he means your name on Westeros.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 4, 2016 17:42:14 GMT
ac Min is known as LynnS, I'm known as Yield, and Melifeather is Feather Crystal.
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 18:01:07 GMT
Cheers. I probably won't join that thread but still it's good to be able to link those comments back to here
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Post by ac on Aug 5, 2016 21:04:58 GMT
I finally finished that thread. Dense! I'll admit upfront that I am quite biased as I don't want time travel to be possible. Or more accurately I don't want Bran (or anyone else) to be able to interfere with the past. That being said, here we go . I know I am probably in the minority but I'm not really convinced that it is Bran warging Walder / past Hodor in the show. I think there is at least a fair chance that past Bloodraven peaked into the future and saw the trouble they were likely to be in and created Hodor. Not to mention that Hodor has been essential in Bran arriving at the cave. (Sidenote: I'm not even convinced Bloodraven is really dead! Why were 2 Others just waiting there when the Night's King came?). Add this to the general books vs show differences and I'd say there's reasonable doubt. Then there is Jon's dream where he talks to Bran. I don't think there is really strong evidence to suggest that he is not in the Crypts of Winterfell. - The smell of death seems relevant to the crypts of Winterfell
- He is depicted as a growing sapling, suggesting he is only just beginning to grasp his powers and become the fully realised version of himself
- I know that at this point he doesn't know about the weirnet but still the weirwood trees carry some pretty heavy symbolism in Westeros, especially with those from the North. It could even be how Jon chooses to interpret Bran's presence rather than Bran choosing the weirwood as a kind of avatar.
- Bran is not sure it really happened, and that it could have been just a dream. This suggests it was not an intentional act from the future but an accidental act from the present where he does not understand how to control, or even the full extent of, his powers. To a certain extent this reminds me of the first time he wargs Hodor unintentionally.
The only thing that really makes me wonder is the "I like it in the dark" statement. That doesn't seem to jive with how Bran felt in the crypts. One theory (hope) I have is that the past and present can be viewed in perfect clarity because they have happened / are happening and are fixed in time. But looking into the future gets progressively murkier or uncertain the further forward you reach. I'm not sure of the exact quote but I feel like this is something that has been alluded to by Melisandre when she is searching in the fires.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 5, 2016 21:12:11 GMT
- Bran is not sure it really happened, and that it could have been just a dream. This suggests it was not an intentional act from the future but an accidental act from the present where he does not understand how to control, or even the full extent of, his powers. To a certain extent this reminds me of the first time he wargs Hodor unintentionally.
One theory (hope) I have is that the past and present can be viewed in perfect clarity because they have happened / are happening and are fixed in time. But looking into the future gets progressively murkier or uncertain the further forward you reach. I'm not sure of the exact quote but I feel like this is something that has been alluded to by Melisandre when she is searching in the fires. Yes, I think Bran has already been there done that. We won't see Bran go back and change things because he has already gone back and changed things. We're seeing the result of that. What I think is that he can't go back for do-overs in a part of the timeline he's already affected. The ink truly is dry on that part of the story. If Bran actually did cause Hodor to Hodor, it would also be in Bran's nature to possibly try and prevent that. But he cannot, because he needs Hodor to be Hodor, it's essential to the story. But that's not to say that Bran's interference hasn't caused broken loops. An extreme example might be... say Bran figured out how to warg Rhaegar (or somehow inhabited Rhaegar's armor). So he gave Lyanna the garland because that's what he heard happened in the story. And I think what he heard happened in the story is going to be very meaningful.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 5, 2016 21:28:01 GMT
Just throwing this out there to see if it makes sense....what if the definition of Jon having "more of the north in him" means that the old gods, aka Bloodraven and the godhead, deliberately arranged a baby swap to position Jon to be in the right place in the future? Jon himself may have mirrored that very act when he swapped Mance and Craster's sons.
Who would be the inversions to Mance and Craster prior to Robert's Rebellion? King Beyond the Wall would be King in the South, and Craster...hmmm...Pisswater Prince? I still think Arthur Dayne is the man with the yellow cloak...
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Post by ac on Aug 5, 2016 21:33:41 GMT
What I think is that he can't go back for do-overs in a part of the timeline he's already affected. The ink truly is dry on that part of the story. The mechanics of this are even harder to get my head round than run-of-the-mill time travel !
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Post by ac on Aug 5, 2016 21:40:46 GMT
Who would be the inversions to Mance and Craster prior to Robert's Rebellion? Going a loooong way back, the Night's king maybe. On completely speculative note, and I have no idea how we get this point, but I think we may see Jon become the new Night's king before before the end of the story.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 5, 2016 21:44:24 GMT
I don't think the past can be changed. The only thing they can do is change the present so that the future gets changed. I think Bloodraven saw Jon's future and did a baby swap when he was born in order for Ned to believe he was Lyanna's child. The "more of the north in him" is our clue of the meddling. He's Rhaegar and Ashara/Elia's son. He's the inversion to Mance's son. Mance's son isn't at the Wall, so Jon is, while Lyanna's child is the inversion of Craster's son Monster, and was killed by Ser Gregor. Bloodraven saved Rhaegar's son to take what rightfully should have been Lyanna's son's place. But why?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 5, 2016 21:47:28 GMT
Just throwing this out there to see if it makes sense....what if the definition of Jon having "more of the north in him" means that the old gods, aka Bloodraven and the godhead, deliberately arranged a baby swap to position Jon to be in the right place in the future? Jon himself may have mirrored that very act when he swapped Mance and Craster's sons. Who would be the inversions to Mance and Craster prior to Robert's Rebellion? King Beyond the Wall would be King in the South, and Craster...hmmm...Pisswater Prince? I still think Arthur Dayne is the man with the yellow cloak... King in the South - a Prince of Dorne possibly. Or the rightful King. Both of which point to Aegon. Craster. Incest guy. Tywin? Jaime? I'd point to a Targ but no one fits the bill. Remember Ned saying he'd sooner trust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister. Is that something like not trusting a child to Craster? Has Mance paralleled anyone Dornish in your travels Mel? The mechanics of this are even harder to get my head round than run-of-the-mill time travel ! Lol I know, crazy stuff. Once the doors opened, the possibilities are endless. All we can do is get into GRRMs head, and I don't think he'd create a story where Bran could go back and change stuff so drastically as to dismiss the reader's understanding of the past. And... that might have made no sense lol. Meaning... I don't think GRRM would have Bran go back and prevent Brandon from storming King's Landing and demanding that Rhaegar come out and die. But I do think GRRM would have Bran (as Brandon) play out that part of the story because that's how the story happened and it can't be changed. No, I'm completely sober. I swear.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 5, 2016 21:48:21 GMT
I think we may see Jon become the new Night's king before before the end of the story. There is a reason Jon has so much King imagery. He is the rightful heir of course ETA of the Night's King that is
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