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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 22, 2016 23:37:41 GMT
In time, Bran will be able to see beyond the trees. And that past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. This right here: A weirwood.It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had is brother always had three eyes?
Not always came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
....
Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him. This is Bran unconfined by time and space. The wierwood sprouting and growing before Jon's eyes representing time. Jon encounters him in the wolfdream at the Skirling Pass in aCoK. This is before Sam brings Bran and party through the Black Gate. This is future Bran talking to Jon in the past. Timeline check? Beautiful passage, and a great addition to the discussion! So... it's well before Bran even starts his "lessons." Timelord confirmed.
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Post by min on Jul 22, 2016 23:43:31 GMT
This right here: A weirwood.It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had is brother always had three eyes?
Not always came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
....
Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him. This is Bran unconfined by time and space. The wierwood sprouting and growing before Jon's eyes representing time. Jon encounters him in the wolfdream at the Skirling Pass in aCoK. This is before Sam brings Bran and party through the Black Gate. This is future Bran talking to Jon in the past. Timeline check? Beautiful passage, and a great addition to the discussion! So... it's well before Bran even starts his "lessons." Timelord confirmed. I hope so. Does it fit the timeline though? I get confused about when events occur. Also, Bran is unbound and/or unchained!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 23, 2016 0:07:37 GMT
Beautiful passage, and a great addition to the discussion! So... it's well before Bran even starts his "lessons." Timelord confirmed. I hope so. Does it fit the timeline though? I get confused about when events occur. Also, Bran is unbound and/or unchained! I think the timeline is moot when it comes to Bran, and that passage drives it home actually. And yes, wow good catch! Also Jon having a sort of future vision, that's not the usual wolf dream...
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 0:33:46 GMT
I hope so. Does it fit the timeline though? I get confused about when events occur. Also, Bran is unbound and/or unchained! I think the timeline is moot when it comes to Bran, and that passage drives it home actually. And yes, wow good catch! Also Jon having a sort of future vision, that's not the usual wolf dream... No, it's not the usual wolfdream. It's a lot more like Bran's coma dream where he is shown the landscape and events in the present and future. Only this time it's Bran doing the driving. added: So then, is it a deliberate choice on GRRM's part that from Jon's POV, he talks to Bran and then Bran touches Ghost; and from Bran's POV it's the reverse: He touched Ghost and then talked to Jon?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 23, 2016 1:05:13 GMT
I think the timeline is moot when it comes to Bran, and that passage drives it home actually. And yes, wow good catch! Also Jon having a sort of future vision, that's not the usual wolf dream... No, it's not the usual wolfdream. It's a lot more like Bran's coma dream where he is shown the landscape and events in the present and future. Only this time it's Bran doing the driving. added: So then, is it a deliberate choice on GRRM's part that from Jon's POV, he talks to Bran and then Bran touches Ghost; and from Bran's POV it's the reverse: He touched Ghost and then talked to Jon? I'm certain it's deliberate. And Ghost is not the usual direwolf either, there's more to him. Sent by and possibly created by Bloodraven (or even Bran) IMO. There has to be a reason that "mating wolf with wolf" is singled out by Haggon as a Skinchanging Unforgiveable Sin, and there has to be a reason Wolf resembles both Bloodraven and a Weirwood face! Maybe GRRM is telling us that Bran created Ghost? We had a whole discussion back in Heresy and here and there about canine/wolf superfecundity, and that it was possible for the direwolf mother to have mated with several males, ergo more than one father to the litter. And we get a lesson about how attractive "mating wolf with wolf" is to a skinchanger while warging, c/o Varamyr, so it's not really a stretch. The next question would be if human skinchangers/wargs could have the superfecundity trait. Very cool connection there with Ghost, I'm letting it sink in.
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 1:14:25 GMT
Well, I think Bran is experiencing events from Jon's future to his past in the moment. In other words, the first event is that Jon speaks to Bran, then Bran touches Ghost. Whereas Bran experiences the future event first (touching Ghost) and then the previous event last (talking to Jon). It's very subtle, but Bran is experiencing time from future to the past. Which would make sense if Bran is still on the other side of the Wall in Jon's timeline of events. We might look for other reverse POV's as evidence of time tampering. LOL
Just recalling that Jojen refers to Bran as the chained wolf. He's no longer chained and I wonder if Jon is chained in some wayl. If you have a link for the Heresy discussion I'd like to read it.
It would be great is someone with timeline expertise could verify Bran on the other side of the wall when this occurs at the Skirling Pass. Then it would be book canon and a solid claim. My eyes are just so bad these days. I end up falling asleep.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 23, 2016 1:40:19 GMT
Well, I think Bran is experiencing events from Jon's future to his past in the moment. In other words, the first event is that Jon speaks to Bran, then Bran touches Ghost. Whereas Bran experiences the future event first (touching Ghost) and then the previous event last (talking to Jon). It's very subtle, but Bran is experiencing time from future to the past. Which would make sense if Bran is still on the other side of the Wall in Jon's timeline of events. We might look for other reverse POV's as evidence of time tampering. LOL Just recalling that Jojen refers to Bran as the chained wolf. He's no longer chained and I wonder if Jon is chained in some wayl. If you have a link for the Heresy discussion I'd like to read it. It would be great is someone with timeline expertise could verify Bran on the other side of the wall when this occurs at the Skirling Pass. Then it would be book canon and a solid claim. My eyes are just so bad these days. I end up falling asleep. Oh I see what you mean now! Fascinating. I've suspected that time can actually run backwards. I'll do some digging on this tomorrow and try to figure out the timeline around the time of the Skirling Pass. One big clue to backwards time is MMR's "sun rising in the west" spiel. And although we can't place Dany, Drogo and Rhaego north of the Wall (yet), there has to be a reason HBO chose to show that to us. For all I know Jon could end up being Rhaego.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 23, 2016 1:42:07 GMT
Bran is definitely still in Winterfell* when that happens because they don't come out of the crypts until the last chapter of Clash, and begin their road trip in Storm. They don't even reach the Nightfort until mid way through Clash, with Bran telling the story of the Rat King as a type of foreshadowing of what will happen at the Red Wedding.
ETA* timeline wise, when read as sequence of chapters, as opposed to the overall story that maybe playing out here.
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 1:52:53 GMT
Bran is definitely still in Winterfell* when that happens because they don't come out of the crypts until the last chapter of Clash, and begin their road trip in Storm. They don't even reach the Nightfort until mid way through Clash, with Bran telling the story of the Rat King as a type of foreshadowing of what will happen at the Red Wedding. ETA* timeline wise, when read as sequence of chapters, as opposed to the overall story that maybe playing out here.Excellent. It's a stronger claim. I'll take it.
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 2:49:06 GMT
OK here's the proof. Bran sees Jon while skinchanging Summer; when Jon escapes from the Wildlings after crossing over the Wall. Bran has not yet entered the Night Fort but is hiding in Queenscrown Tower. This is when their timelines sync up again. awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Queenscrown
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 15:55:16 GMT
Ok, I think I can qualify this a little better.
1) When Jon encounters WeirBran at the Skirling Pass; Bran has not yet passed through the Black Gate. Jon is encountering Bran in Bran's future. 2) From WierBran's POV; Bran is encountering Jon in Jon's past.
As Ser Duncan points out the chapter chronology seems to confirm the timeline except that unless the characters are together; we can't know if the POV timelines are coincident or chronological.
The events at Queenstower where Bran sees Jon links up their timelines and confirms that Bran has not passed through the Black Gate when Jon has the WierBran vision at the Skirling Pass.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 23, 2016 16:44:24 GMT
.
And Bran doesn't like to come back from Summers body into the dark crypt.
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 17:07:09 GMT
. And Bran doesn't like to come back from Summers body into the dark crypt.Yes, which is at odds with the statement weirBran makes to Jon, that he's not afraid anymore and likes it in the dark where nobody can see him. Bran has had a dream of himself in the future? He's still the winged wolf chained to the earth that Jojen speaks of from his green dreams. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them." "Did the crow have three eyes?" Jojen nodded.
The 3EC is too weak to break the chains, Bran's link to the direwolf.
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Post by min on Jul 23, 2016 17:17:11 GMT
. And Bran doesn't like to come back from Summers body into the dark crypt.Yes, which is at odds with the statement weirBran makes to Jon, that he's not afraid anymore and likes it in the dark where nobody can see him. Bran has had a dream of himself in the future? He's still the winged wolf chained to the earth that Jojen speaks of from his green dreams. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them." "Did the crow have three eyes?" Jojen nodded.
The 3EC is too weak to break the chains, Bran's link to the direwolf. Bran describes his experience in the cave like it's a kind of sensory deprivation chamber or a what a coma state would be like. His only escape is to warg Summer and so he is chained to the earth by his own fears.
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Post by min on Jul 24, 2016 11:09:31 GMT
I don't think that would be possible. Memories can't get muddled because if they did, then someone would cotton on that changes are being made. I think Dany's false memories are entirely due to her being lied to. We each of us have false memories of past events, it's normal and natural to do that. Both Sansa and Arya, mistake past events for what their head canon tells them happened. In Dany's case, she's got what happened to her, what Viserys said happened to them, and what the other adults told her happened, all fighting with real memories that she has of her own and she's melding them together, just like we all do, in order to have them make sense in her head, not in reality. The reason I don't think Bran's meddling affects memories is two fold. First, if it's noted by the characters themselves, then they may act independently and work against anything that Bran did. Take that Jaime example, if Jaime was ever aware that he was taken over and used, then he would not have the memory of actually pushing Bran from the window. And we know he does because he confessed it to Catelyn. He'd have a loss of time, or loss of memory, in which he would remember the event beginning and ending, but not his actions in between. Something more subtle is going on, more of a suggestion, rather than a complete taking over. Second, there a lot of people whose job it is to take note and record the histories of Westeros as they are happening. If every time Bran affected a change was noted by these folk the pattern would become apparent and someone would be bound to notice. In other words, when Bran changes something, everything changes, including what was written in the past about events on a day to day level. So, the only way to make things work would be, the only ones able to remember the changes affected and their effects would have to be the one doing the changing. I'd add the outside possibility that someone like Leaf or the other Greenseers in the cave may know as well. You'd have to be out of time, not in the course of time and events in order for the changes to evident. Otherwise, it wouldn't work, because sooner or later, the actual characters will figure it out. The examples that you listed actually confirm my suspicion that Bran did not change the past. He changed the future. The current characters are reliving the past, but the altering of reality has caused some of our characters to have wonky, conflicting memories. Of course Jaime pushed Bran. Bran put himself in that position on purpose. The lightning strike in the past is because that's where he entered the alternate reality in order to change the future. Again, I am stressing that he did not change the past. He made all of present day Westeros enter an alternate reality where everyone is reliving the past. Edited to add: The flipping of the current reality has blurred some of the character's memories. There has to be some indication that Bran has altered the future. I cannot wait to discover who Jon's parents are, because I think the answer is in one of the uniquely named POVs, but the flipped reality has caused some people to remember weird details. Most of the people that are remembering weird things, like Ned, are dead. I don't think Daenerys is aware that she has mixed memories. She remembers Willem Derry as an "old bear", but dollars to donuts I'd be willing to bet that he looked nothing like Jeor Mormont in real life. She only remembers him looking that way because of the flipped reality. We know Jeor didn't die like Willem did. He was alive and well on the Wall up until he was killed at Craster's. I'm still not sure that Bran can change past events outside of his own living timeline. But clearly he can converse with Jon and Theon, characters that are still alive in Bran's present timeline. Is there any evidence that he can actually "see" future events? Apart from speaking to Jon in his own future; we don't have any visions of what may happen although Bran does become unchained from the earth and unbound by time at some point as evidenced by the weirBran connection to Jon. I'm not sure that any of Bran's coma dream visions were of the future; just the past and present. Theon is interesting because of his state of mind. His constant state of hightened fear and anxiety seem to make him more susceptible. The fact that Ned had a memory lapse at the ToJ event might also point to his shocked state of mind as a factor. REM sleep is another state of mind that makes characters more open to a connection to the wiernet. BR is called by the dreamers; Dany doesn't know if she's sleeping or not when Quaithe contacts her; Bran doesn't know if he 'dreamed' Jon or not. Bran gets sleeping draughts from Maester Luwin because everyone at the castle can hear him screaming while he sleeps; Tyrion gets drunk or stays up all night to avoid dreaming. Mel says sleep (dreams) are the little death. Bran can certainly see the past and probably has the memories of all those other Brandons but I don't think they are all the same Brandon. Although they may all run together as one in the weirnet just as they do in Old Nan's memory. The current Bran might also assume the identity in totality at some point just as each Brandon before him. But I think he can only change events in the current timeline with those who are still living. Otherwise there would be no reason to continue replaying the histories until he gets it right or he defeats opposing forces; whatever that may be. Otherwise, he would have already fixed everything in the past.
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