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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Feb 25, 2016 14:42:37 GMT
Repost of an earlier thread of mine as a follow-up to a comment in the Interesting Observations thread. Premise....could the pale/milky/glassy/icy/bluish swords of ASOIAF be made of one specific material? I info-dumped all the crap below and never really came back to it, but perhaps you fine folk will be able to take it and run with it. Ok, so, this may be a really stupid observation that has been done to death already, but I'm going to bring it up anyway. It popped into my mind thanks a collection of quotes about swords posted by snowfyre – what stood out for me in that collection at that three seconds was the description of the Others’ swords as “crystal”. Now, ice is crystallized water, yeah yeah. We get that. However, ice as a particularly strong handheld weapon, not such a thing, right? We’re talking about this thing slicing and dicing like a Ginsu knife, and being able to hold withstand blows from iron/steel while remaining unscathed, right? (The exception being the show-fic of Other-blade decimation by Valyrian steel, which may actually make sense – I’ll get to that in a sec.) So I was thinking about crystals and properties of metals and all that, and I thought about obsidian – obsidian/dragonglass being the one substance thus far in-story that can kill an Other. And then I thought about obsidian being a byproduct of volcanoes…and that led me to the thought about another byproduct of volcanic activity: one that is almost invulnerably hard, one that is translucent, one that is used in real world applications for precise cutting and cutting of very hard/resistant materials.
Diamond.**Warning: boring science talk** Diamonds are sloooowwwwllllly formed deep in the earth at an average of 2000 deg F (1100 C for the rest of the world), but are slooooowwwlllly brought to the surface by volcanic eruptions deep in the earth. This means that diamonds on the surface of the earth are very, very old. Diamonds are the hardest materials on earth and have extreme resistance to breakage even though the crystal orientation can result in very fine/sharp edge surfaces for the cutting and such. Recall also that diamonds in their natural and unpolished form are rather opaque... “milky”, if you will:    BUT, they can also have a distinctive blue color due to the infusion of boron – - Boron being a very light element produced entirely by 1) cosmic ray spallation, or a type of nuclear fission occurring due to the impact of cosmic rays on an object, and 2) supernovae, “rare astronomical event that occurs during the last stellar evolutionary stages of a massive star's life, whose dramatic violent and catastrophic destruction is marked by one final titanic explosion.” Also see: carbonado diamonds, a form of diamond deposited on the earth via asteroid/meteorite impact; impact diamonds, diamonds that form under the appropriate temperature/pressure conditions that result from the impact of a meteor (giant Popigai crater in Russia). Rough BLUE diamond:    Now compare to obsidian - the inverse parallel to a diamond – which is: - Black - Shiny - Brittle - Formed by volcanic eruption at the surface of the Earth - Formed very quickly as volcanic lava cools - Relatively ‘young’ as far as minerals go Another point of interest: obsidian is not a true mineral – it’s actually glass. In Earth-realm, what’s the most effective cutting material for glass? That’s right…diamond. But flip it around, GRRM style, and you have the inverse: glass cuts diamond. Now, without going into further scientific blahblahblah, I’m thinking about connections between: the Others in the Lands of Always Winter, hot springs beneath Winterfell, the CotF gifting obsidian, Ice, Dawn and Starfall, the mines of Old Valyria, Valyrian Steel. Also, since this is my thread, I’ll throw in the Marvel ref: the Black Knight (ASOIAF counterpart Arthur Dayne) carries the Ebony Blade – a sword made from a meteor, a sword that is only vulnerable to a blow from an object made from the same meteor. We know that the whereabouts/fate of the original Ice is TBD. Ice1 was replaced by Ice2, made of Valyrian Steel prior to the Doom – meaning, it was forged when the mines of Old Valyria were still in operation and the Fourteen Fires still burned. Following the breadcrumbs, it is possible that Ice1 - perhaps a diamond/Dawn-like sword - and Ice2, dragonglass, Dawn, and Valyrian Steel could have the following elements in common: minerals from deep in the earth, volcanoes, meteors. I have no idea how they all tie together, but I bet they are related. Or, you know, the Others’ swords are in fact real ice and are awesome because magic. Discuss. |
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Post by eiraseren on Feb 28, 2016 8:02:34 GMT
Now, ice is crystallized water, yeah yeah. We get that. However, ice as a particularly strong handheld weapon, not such a thing, right? We’re talking about this thing slicing and dicing like a Ginsu knife, and being able to hold withstand blows from iron/steel while remaining unscathed, right? (The exception being the show-fic of Other-blade decimation by Valyrian steel, which may actually make sense – I’ll get to that in a sec.) So I was thinking about crystals and properties of metals and all that, and I thought about obsidian – obsidian/dragonglass being the one substance thus far in-story that can kill an Other. And then I thought about obsidian being a byproduct of volcanoes…and that led me to the thought about another byproduct of volcanic activity: one that is almost invulnerably hard, one that is translucent, one that is used in real world applications for precise cutting and cutting of very hard/resistant materials....
Now compare to obsidian - the inverse parallel to a diamond – which is: - Black - Shiny - Brittle - Formed by volcanic eruption at the surface of the Earth - Formed very quickly as volcanic lava cools - Relatively ‘young’ as far as minerals go ... We know that the whereabouts/fate of the original Ice is TBD. Ice1 was replaced by Ice2, made of Valyrian Steel prior to the Doom – meaning, it was forged when the mines of Old Valyria were still in operation and the Fourteen Fires still burned. Following the breadcrumbs, it is possible that Ice1 - perhaps a diamond/Dawn-like sword - and Ice2, dragonglass, Dawn, and Valyrian Steel could have the following elements in common: minerals from deep in the earth, volcanoes, meteors. I have no idea how they all tie together, but I bet they are related. Or, you know, the Others’ swords are in fact real ice and are awesome because magic. This is an interesting idea. I've wondered about the parallelism of the two kinds of swords as well. But the one thing diamond doesn't take into account is the intense cold. In fact, The Others appear to actually transfer cold to other substances (and to people). Royce's sword shatters, but I have the distinct impression that this happens because it is cold from making contact with an Other blade. So I think the blades may actually be made of ice. Dragonglass, on the other hand (har, har) might actually be, like you point out, ... Not ice  the opposite, I think (even though made of glass). Which could explain the the two properties' relationship to one another, as well, and why some spell holding together a thing made of ice might just come undone if using a dragonglass blade to cut it. |
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 27, 2016 20:50:18 GMT
Some Pig has theorized that Dawn/Ice is embedded in a meteor down in the crypts. She'll have to clarify her thoughts, but I think she's said they're the same sword?  |
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 27, 2016 21:18:26 GMT
Some Pig has theorized that Dawn/Ice is embedded in a meteor down in the crypts. She'll have to clarify her thoughts, but I think she's said they're the same sword? Not quite - I think Dawn is the counterpart to the Ebony Blade, which was forged from a meteor that resides at the castle of the family that wields it...in other words, Starfall. If there's something hidden in the crypts, it might be the original Ice - and it's possible that the original Ice came from the same source as Dawn, but I do think they are different swords. |
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 28, 2016 15:07:25 GMT
If there's something hidden in the crypts, it might be the original Ice - and it's possible that the original Ice came from the same source as Dawn, but I do think they are different swords. BTW, kinda-but-not-really speaking of lost swords and black blades that glow red with fire, etc etc, I've been toying with the idea that the original Ice was made of obsidian. The Valyrian steel Ice starts to make sense if you think about perhaps some long-ago master forger in Valyria trying to recreate the original - spell-forged and dark as smoke. Obsidian could technically be referred to as "black ice". I mean, think about it - how would a dude hailing from the Age of Heroes have a fancy steel sword to fight off the Others? It's got to be made of a natural material. Just a thought. |
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 16:38:57 GMT
If there's something hidden in the crypts, it might be the original Ice - and it's possible that the original Ice came from the same source as Dawn, but I do think they are different swords. BTW, kinda-but-not-really speaking of lost swords and black blades that glow red with fire, etc etc, I've been toying with the idea that the original Ice was made of obsidian. The Valyrian steel Ice starts to make sense if you think about perhaps some long-ago master forger in Valyria trying to recreate the original - spell-forged and dark as smoke. Obsidian could technically be referred to as "black ice". I mean, think about it - how would a dude hailing from the Age of Heroes have a fancy steel sword to fight off the Others? It's got to be made of a natural material. Just a thought. Black Ice = frozen fire. I like that. A weapon against ice magic considering what obsidion does when it comes into contact with white walkers - absorbs the cold or binding ice magic. Melisandre might know more about 'lightbringer' than we think since I'm pretty sure Stannis' new and improved sword is obsidion and gives off no heat. But her ruby gives off heat and pulses in time with her heartbeat. aDwD Jon III ...The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle, the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." Similar to the WW but without the heat. aFfC Sam I "The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if he tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."
If there was no manufactured steel during the dawn age but only natural materials; could dragonsteel be dragon bone? There are a few references to the ice dragon constellation and the blue star in the eye or it's rider. Is this the 'star' that fell to the ground?
Westeros Wiki:
Dragonbone is a material that is created from the bones of dragons. It is used to make many items of value because of its rarity and its special properties.
Dragonbone is black due to its high iron content. It is as strong as other metals, such as steel, yet lighter and more flexible. Rare dragonbone bows are highly sought after,[1] as they can outrange even goldenheart bows.[2]
According to legend, the founder of House Dayne tracked a falling star to the mouth of the Torentine, and Starfall was then constructed where a magical stone was discovered.[2] The greatsword Dawn was forged from the heart of this fallen star[3] and has possibly been wielded by Daynes for ten thousand years.[4] The sigil of the Daynes depicts the white sword and falling star.[5]
The blade is as pale as milkglass,[1] unlike dark Valyrian steel, but is similar in strength and sharpness.[6] Unlike other houses who have ancestral swords, House Dayne does not pass its sword from lord to heir. Only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can wield Dawn, and the Sword of the Morning is envied throughout the Seven Kingdoms.[6]
aGoT Eddard X "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together iin a rush of steel and shadow, he could har Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
Is it curious that Ned would have the vision of a storm of rose petals and the eyes of death immediately after Ser Arthur draws the dawn sword? The sword is alive with light an euphemism for (terrible) knowledge, truth?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 28, 2016 16:53:41 GMT
If there is a dormant volcano somewhere in the north as I suspect, and the Children gifted dragonglass weapons to the NW, and the Children helped the Last Hero fight off the Others and their ice spiders, then it seems logical *to me* that the help may have been 1) sanctuary, and 2) weaponry they knew worked against the Others. Ie, obsidian, frozen fire, black ice. If the Last Hero was Brandon the Builder or some other Stark, perhaps their gift was a man-sized blade that became known as Ice.
I'm also thinking of the Ebony Blade again, the one that is the basis for Dawn. The Ebony Blade is, of course, black, and glows with red fire in battle. It is a near indestructible sword, vulnerable only to a weapon carved from the same meteor.
If the original Ice was obsidian from a volcanic event - perhaps one caused by an impact from a meteor - and Dawn is carved from the meteor itself, they could be 'sister blades' sharing a unique source but with different properties.
I should probably move this to another thread....
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 17:07:11 GMT
A separate thread would be fine - I still think we are talking about two swords for ice and fire and so we have two legends AA and tPwP. I don't think dragonsteel and dragonstone are the same thing. Dragonbone has the property of steel and bone taken from around the heart could have some magic property in it's own right if the dragon is fire or ice made into flesh. A star fallen to the ground could be another way of saying a dragon fell to the ground especially if early society believed the souls of the dead went up to the stars as the Dothraki believe. I think Valerian steel comes from meteorites. Dragonbone has a high iron content and could conceivably be forged in some way. I don't think the dawn sword comes from meteors; comets or volcanos.
I think there is a fire and ice side of the equation requiring different weapons and different but similar legends. I think possible that the Cotf would provide different weapons for different purposes especially given the similarities between the descriptions of the palestone sword and the anatomy of the WW.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 28, 2016 17:28:00 GMT
If there was no manufactured steel during the dawn age but only natural materials; could dragonste el be dragon bone? I've been saying this for years! I'm glad you came up with the idea too, make me feel I'm not alone cracking pots I should probably move this to another thread.... Which thread could this go in? If you move these, take this one as well please? |
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Post by ac on Aug 28, 2016 17:30:40 GMT
If there is a dormant volcano somewhere in the north as I suspect, and the Children gifted dragonglass weapons to the NW, and the Children helped the Last Hero fight off the Others and their ice spiders, then it seems logical *to me* that the help may have been 1) sanctuary, and 2) weaponry they knew worked against the Others. Ie, obsidian, frozen fire, black ice. If the Last Hero was Brandon the Builder or some other Stark, perhaps their gift was a man-sized blade that became known as Ice. I would definitely agree that the CotF gave the Last Hero his dragonsteel sword that Sam finds mention of. The stories say his normal sword had shattered before finding the CotF and it's likely he still needed to battle his was back to civilisation. Presumably this is also the beginning of the tradition of the CotF to gift the NW 100(?) obsidian blades each year. If the Last Hero's sword turns out to be the original Ice that would be cool. |
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 28, 2016 17:35:37 GMT
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 28, 2016 17:41:47 GMT
I think this thread would the best one to move these posts to Yup, just what I had in mind. I will let you handle it though, as I royally screwed up the brothel one I tried.  |
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 28, 2016 18:05:27 GMT
I think this thread would the best one to move these posts to Yup, just what I had in mind. I will let you handle it though, as I royally screwed up the brothel one I tried. Nae worries. I'll move these now.  |
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 18:32:57 GMT
If there is a dormant volcano somewhere in the north as I suspect, and the Children gifted dragonglass weapons to the NW, and the Children helped the Last Hero fight off the Others and their ice spiders, then it seems logical *to me* that the help may have been 1) sanctuary, and 2) weaponry they knew worked against the Others. Ie, obsidian, frozen fire, black ice. If the Last Hero was Brandon the Builder or some other Stark, perhaps their gift was a man-sized blade that became known as Ice. I would definitely agree that the CotF gave the Last Hero his dragonsteel sword that Sam finds mention of. The stories say his normal sword had shattered before finding the CotF and it's likely he still needed to battle his was back to civilisation. Presumably this is also the beginning of the tradition of the CotF to gift the NW 100(?) obsidian blades each year. If the Last Hero's sword turns out to be the original Ice that would be cool. The thing is that obsidian is a form of glass and easy to shatter. It can be knapped into arrrowheads, spearheads, knives but you can smash it with a rock. I'm not sure it would be as effective on a wight the same way as a WW. GoT Arya IV Another skull loomed ahead, the biggest monster of all, but Arya did not slow. She lept over a ridge of black teeth as tall as swords, dashed through hungry jaws, and threw herself against the door. SoS Sam I The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. December 11, 1999 Dragons in Westeros In 'The Hedge Knight' ancient dragons are mentioned, thousands of years olds. Were there Dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens brought them, or did the Targaryens bring the skeletons of the old Dragons with them? There were dragons all over, once.The follow up question, which I realise may be something you keep for the books, is what happened to the Dragons out of Westeros? If I understood correctly, the Alchemists say that there were no more Dragons anywhere. Was that so? There are no more dragons known to exist... but this is a medieval period, and large parts of the world are still terra incognita, so there are always tales of dragon sightings in far off mysterious places. The maesters tend to discount those. |
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Post by ac on Aug 28, 2016 18:42:44 GMT
I would definitely agree that the CotF gave the Last Hero his dragonsteel sword that Sam finds mention of. The stories say his normal sword had shattered before finding the CotF and it's likely he still needed to battle his was back to civilisation. Presumably this is also the beginning of the tradition of the CotF to gift the NW 100(?) obsidian blades each year. If the Last Hero's sword turns out to be the original Ice that would be cool. The thing is that obsidian is a form of glass and easy to shatter. It can be knapped into arrrowheads, spearheads, knives but you can smash it with a rock. I'm not sure it would be as effective on a wight the same way as a WW. Maybe it is warded in some way add the extra strength. Like dragonglass + warding = dragonsteel. I find the name of dragon steel interesting. As has been mentioned already, steel did not exist during the Age of Heroes so it seems like an odd choice. Maybe this was just the name given to the material by the people who eventually wrote the story down thousands of years later but why change it? |
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the opposite, I think (even though made of glass). Which could explain the the two properties' relationship to one another, as well, and why some spell holding together a thing made of ice might just come undone if using a dragonglass blade to cut it.
