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Post by snowfyre on Mar 2, 2016 0:55:04 GMT
Perhaps also worth mentioning, and wondering about, Maege Mormont.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 2, 2016 1:38:25 GMT
Voted write in so I can ramble a bit. The word maegi is most likely not of Valyrian origin. The Dothraki use the word in a very negative way. But Mirri says that the word means wise. Yet Mirri is called gods wife in her culture. She calls herself gods wife and Jorah calls her, "Godswife." So not a Lhazareen word, I think. The Dothraki use the word negatively, so probably not a Dothraki original either. The Dothraki travel far and wide and clash with many cultures, so it's hard to say where they got this word from. The other maegi in the story is Maggy. The one who gave the bloodtelling to Cersei. She is from the East. Not much to go on there. I will guess that the word is from the East. I agree. The Dothraki equivalent of a "wise woman" are the Crones of Vaes Dothrak, and they are not referred to as maegi. Instead, as you noted, maegi is used in a pejorative way. So while I think the Dothraki know the word, it's origin is not Dothraki, but likely from a neighboring culture not thought highly of by the Dothraki (which really doesn't narrow it down much).
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 2, 2016 1:42:15 GMT
Perhaps also worth mentioning, and wondering about, Maege Mormont. I thought of her as well. Perhaps we should consider Maegor as well whose mother was a woman who practiced black magic, much like Mirri.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 2, 2016 1:46:28 GMT
Perhaps also worth mentioning, and wondering about, Maege Mormont. I thought of her as well. Perhaps we should consider Maegor as well whose mother was a woman who practiced black magic, much like Mirri. I thought of Maegor. But did not know his mother practiced magic of any sort. (Intriguing.) I assume this info can be found in the World book?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 2, 2016 1:49:57 GMT
I thought of her as well. Perhaps we should consider Maegor as well whose mother was a woman who practiced black magic, much like Mirri. I thought of Maegor. But did not know his mother practiced magic of any sort. (Intriguing.) I assume this info can be found in the World book? I'm ashamed to admit it, but yes, that's probably where I got that from. I also think it may be part of GRRM's description that he gave to Amok in his description of the Targaryen royalty.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 2, 2016 2:08:51 GMT
I'm ashamed to admit it, but yes, that's probably where I got that from. I also think it may be part of GRRM's description that he gave to Amok in his description of the Targaryen royalty. No shame! I've resisted the World book only because I don't want to find myself relying on it for arguments or ideas that wouldn't be supported in the main series. That said, I also pre-ordered mine, and then bought an e-book copy because it was on super sale. So... (shrug) Here's one place Visenya is connected to "dark sorceries":
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Post by pieceofgosa on Mar 3, 2016 21:46:04 GMT
Cheers Snow, I love coming into a thread 2 pages in so I can do this Right so first things first, although his middle initials are "R R", George ain't no Tolkien. JRR was a bone fide philologist and university professor who had invented languages from the age of 16(ish), George, not so much. Imo, his attempts at linguistics are... adequate I suppose. The word "maegi" is pretty obviously a corruption of the actual english word "magi" (or "magoi", if you prefer the greek). You know, the chaps "from the east" who turned up shortly after Jesus' birth bearing gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. Mystery solved, it has no "in-canon" root as frankly, the author did not put that much thought into it. This differs from the debacle over the prince/princess/dragon/stallion snafu as the author deliberately created that snafu to serve a narrative function (much as he has with "valonquar") and additionally, the mistranslated word has never itself been revealed as I just don't think George cares that much about stuff like that. If we ignore the author for a moment, then I'd be on board with a Ghiscari/Dothraki hybrid word basically meaning "witch". A word that probably has roots in Valyrian, which in turn probably has roots in Asshai. My feeling on the Dothraki is that they are the closest thing still kicking to the first men. If George is following the real world, then presumably humans first appeared in Southyros and at some point, a population moved north to whatever passes for the Caucasus mountains on Planetos, lost the melanin and began inflicting humanities own brand of arse-hollery on the CotF. now then
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 3, 2016 22:12:18 GMT
Nice! And good to see you, pieceofgosa. I agree with this: George ain't no Tolkien. JRR was a bone fide philologist and university professor who had invented languages from the age of 16(ish), George, not so much. I'm just real hesitant to write off the possibility that George is doing intentional things with the relatively few stabs he does take at foreign languages. The full and complete Dothraki language that's apparently been developed for the HBO series... almost completely uninteresting, to me. The 20-25 Dothraki words George actually included in his books before HBO ever heard of ASOIAF? Much, much more interesting. For example (and this might deserve its own thread, but), a decent case could be made that the "PtwP" prophecy was a Dothraki prophecy to begin with. And if that were so, then the "translation error" might very well concern certain Dothraki words and concepts. Imagine, for a moment, if that "translation error" described by Aemon were repeated at Vaes Dothrak by the crones of the dosh khaleen. With Dany standing before them, they prophesied a prince. Or, wait - was it a horse? But how could it be both a prince and Stallion? And hey - " the Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire," so... Wow. Did they just make the same mistake that misled the maesters for a thousand years? Why does the ancient crone "tremble and look at Dany almost as if she were afraid?" And why are the crones "muttering to each other" as they watch Dany bathe in the Womb of the World? What exactly was seen in that vision? Anyway. I think one standout clue that the PtwP prophecy may have been Dothraki all along - or Dothraki-related, all along - is Aemon's comment that " Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." The sentence right before he brings up the translation error. And of course, as Dany leads her small khalasar into the Red Waste, we're told that:
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 3, 2016 22:14:05 GMT
My feeling on the Dothraki is that they are the closest thing still kicking to the first men. Seems like a good bet to me, too. humanities own brand of arse-hollery
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Post by pieceofgosa on Mar 3, 2016 22:59:07 GMT
I'm just real hesitant to write off the possibility that George is doing intentional things with the relatively few stabs he does take at foreign languages. The full and complete Dothraki language that's apparently been developed for the HBO series... almost completely uninteresting, to me. The 20-25 Dothraki words George actually included in his books before HBO ever heard of ASOIAF? Much, much more interesting. I can so completely follow that logic and I agree that DJ Peterson's created language will give us no clues whatsoever to the stuff in the books but I get an overwhelming feeling that George is just not confident doing that stuff, he senses his own inadequacies in that field and as such there is a reticence to engage in linguistic obfuscation or linguistic development. The result of that is that when he does engage in language-based narrative elements they always feel so pointed and on the nose, as in the case of TPTWP and "valonquar". In short, where you are hesitant, I am less so Imagine, for a moment, if that "translation error" described by Aemon were repeated at Vaes Dothrak by the crones of the dosh khaleen. With Dany standing before them, they prophesied a prince. Or, wait - was it a horse? But how could it be both a prince and Stallion? And hey - " the Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire," so... Wow. Did they just make the same mistake that misled the maesters for a thousand years? Why does the ancient crone "tremble and look at Dany almost as if she were afraid?" And why are the crones "muttering to each other" as they watch Dany bathe in the Womb of the World? What exactly was seen in that vision? I think this does need it's own thread as it raises the question, is the problem translation or interpretation ? Anyway. I think one standout clue that the PtwP prophecy may have been Dothraki all along - or Dothraki-related, all along - is Aemon's comment that " Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." The sentence right before he brings up the translation error. Bleeding Star is a pretty massive clue and given what I've already said about GRRM's linguistic prowess, probably not a coincidence. However, all it really confirms is that in the version of the prophecy Aemon & Rhaegar were privy to, the phrase "bleeding star" appears. How it got there and where it came from I have a strong feeling that this prophecy has been abused, conflated, misinterpreted and generally mistreated during it's life and also that it's not one original prophecy. I like the idea of various, magically sensitive people (greendreamers we would call them in Westeros) all over Planetos getting the exact same vision at the exact same time and it causing no end of shit. Think about it, if every single person in the world received a vision of the future (no flash forward stuff, the same vision), a future in which the world was fucked/ending/at war, would we all interpret that vision in the same way ? Unlikely, even more unlikely if the vision was allegorical in nature. Factions would form, religions be created and like when God created multiple languages after the Babel incident, humanity would be fractured, never again to be one people.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Mar 4, 2016 0:53:20 GMT
The word "maegi" is pretty obviously a corruption of the actual english word "magi" (or "magoi", if you prefer the greek). You know, the chaps "from the east" who turned up shortly after Jesus' birth bearing gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh Obviously, yes. I did some digging (I searched wikipedia ) to see if I could find a little more about the word 'magi.' This is one thing I came across. "Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BCE, to denote followers of Zoroastrianism or Zoroaster." And "As early as the 5th century BCE, Greek magos had spawned mageia and magike to describe the activity of a magus, that is, it was his or her art and practice. But almost from the outset the noun for the action and the noun for the actor parted company. Thereafter, mageia was used not for what actual magi did, but for something related to the word 'magic' in the modern sense, i.e. using supernatural means to achieve an effect in the natural world, or the appearance of achieving these effects through trickery or sleight of hand." The closest to the heart of the matter is that they were "magicians" in the old sense which includes astrology, alchemy and overall obscure knowledge. The astrology part harkens to the wise men who followed the star to Bethlehem. Stars. Dothraki. Wise. I don't know. Not much there.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 4, 2016 13:26:57 GMT
I think this does need it's own thread as it raises the question, is the problem translation or interpretation ? Yep. I'll start one today or tomorrow, unless you beat me to it. I envision a thread called "DtwP: the Dothraki that was Promised".
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