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Post by Melifeather on Mar 3, 2016 5:37:41 GMT
this dream signals the opening of the third eye You have very obviously answered this...at least in my opinion...that the "horn" was a howl, and the "waking of the sleepers" IS learning to open the third eye. The Stark kids understand that they have wolf dreams when they are sleeping. So. If you wake the sleeping wolf dreamers you in effect teach them how to open their third eye. YESSSS!!! I need a happy dance! Yup, yup, yup! Snowfyre I love your analysis, because I have been trying to communicate this very fact since I started the Connection Between Warging and Opening the Third Eye thread, and I wasn't getting any love. Maybe with your analysis there will be more believers???
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 3, 2016 13:50:30 GMT
Excellent stuff as always, Snowfyre. Great catch on Arya's "wakening" and Jon's dream at the Skirling Pass. As for Jon's wolf dream, my guess has always been that the true telepath in the Jon-Ghost relationship is Ghost as opposed to Jon. I think Ghost telepathically called out to Jon during their first meeting at Ghost's dead mother. So perhaps Bran reached Jon through Ghost, which is why the dream segued like it did.
As for the horn, the Horn of Winter seems to be buried. Mance is digging up graves looking for it, and Jon later finds a horn buried by the Fist. In Norse mythology their most famous horn is Heimdallr' horn Gjallarhorn which is used to awaken the Gods to right before Ragnorak. That Horn too is buried under the Yggdrasil. And the closest analogy to Yggdrasil (the symbolism is pretty apparent) is the grove of Weirwood trees under which Bloodraven makes his lair, and where Bran is currently "buried". So if the Horn is analogous to the cry of the wolf, and we know how closely Bran is associated with the wolves, then my thought is Bran may be our "Horn of Winter". Recall that much to Luwin's consternation Bran starts his own howling at Winterfell joining the songs of Summer and Shaggydog.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 3, 2016 14:19:05 GMT
Snowfyre I love your analysis Excellent stuff as always, Snowfyre Thanks, guys! It's been a while since I let myself put together any "theories," but I've enjoyed this one. my guess has always been that the true telepath in the Jon-Ghost relationship is Ghost as opposed to Jon. I think Ghost telepathically called out to Jon during their first meeting at Ghost's dead mother. So perhaps Bran reached Jon through Ghost, which is why the dream segued like it did. It does seem like Bran prioritizes the contact with Ghost first, doesn't it? Judging by this line, in particular: And I've wondered about that very first moment in Chapter 1, when Jon hears Ghost and turns back, as the Stark party rides away from the dead mother direwolf. That chapter doesn't offer us Jon's POV, so it's hard to say exactly what catches Jon's attention. And, I confess, I've often written off the specific interactions of that scene as (merely) foreshadowing of the story to come. Which could be unfair. I also wonder whether this dream-encounter can be tied to Bran and Rickon's dream-encounter with dead-Ned. if the Horn is analogous to the cry of the wolf, and we know how closely Bran is associated with the wolves, then my thought is Bran may be our "Horn of Winter". Recall that much to Luwin's consternation Bran starts his own howling at Winterfell joining the songs of Summer and Shaggydog. Might be worth keeping an eye on this idea. The image of Bran, howling, also appears in Melisandre's fire-visions - in Dance, Chapter 31.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 3, 2016 14:52:28 GMT
It could very well be that the horn is Bloodraven or Bran manipulating the wolves into howling.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 3, 2016 15:46:05 GMT
2. Where the hell are they? "The forest was vast and cold... and his cry echoed through the forest." Okay, but where's the ****ing forest? Right at the beginning of this chapter, Martin writes that " there was no grass, and they were above the trees." The place Qhorin decides they'll stop to rest is " the highest point of the pass." So... there is no forest. And assuming Jon's third eye doesn't actually open until the weirwood reaches down to "touch" him, we discover that Ghost must have been awake somewhere in those unforested mountains, at the time. You know, while Jon was dreaming. Because the weirwood touches him, and then BOOM... "suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice." In other words, that forest was not physical. This may seem a rather simple explanation to this question, but I've always rather thought that Ghost was dreaming too. Now hear me out here, because at first it doesn't seem to be the case, but it might be. The group stop at the top of the pass and decide to wait until the sun shifts enough for them to be in shadow before they start an exposed descent. Jon thinks he'd really like a chance to walk in the sunshine, so that he can warm himself, but thinks being a live would be preferable. When Jon wakes suddenly from this dream, and they set off again, the sun is nearly setting, so it seems some time has passed. It is not as instantaneous as Jon drifting off and immediately having this dream. If Ghost, who was already nervous at being in the pass, as evidenced by his repeated turning to look behind them, and since he'd just eaten some salt beef with Jon, it could stand to reason that he'd pick a less exposed place to sleep. When they find Ghost again, he's hidden between boulders, and the sun has dipped behind the mountain line, so Ghost can't be far down the road if night has not fallen yet. It's the eagle perched on some rocks further off that cause the group to stop and that's when Jon finds Ghost. The whole thing suggests that Ghost didn't travel far from where he was attacked. I think both Ghost and Jon were dreaming and at the moment that Bran reaches down and touches Ghost, Ghost startles awake and is exposed. That's when the eagle finds him. It also explains why there is a forest, when there should be none and why it disappears. It also explains why Ghost is in a snow drift when there is no snow either. The previous terrain and the terrain in which Ghost is found is not covered in snow. The ground is described as so stony, there's hardly grass. But there are drifts of snow, and where better to hide a white wolf then in a patch of snow? We see later on that the connection between wolves is stronger than we thought, since Ghost knows what each of his remaining siblings is doing in the Dance chapter. Who can say if the wolves don't reach out to one another in their dreams? If say, Ghost was dreaming of forests, he could've been visiting with Nymeria, and it would explain the forest. Or he could've been with Grey Wind too, but I don't remember were they were at the time, and chances are the Rob was not in a forest at the time or resting during the day. If both Ghost and Nymeria were sleeping though, there is a good chance that both of them could be reaching through to their human partners too, just like the children do.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 3, 2016 17:35:07 GMT
This may seem a rather simple explanation to this question, but I've always rather thought that Ghost was dreaming too. I've considered that. And it's possible that Ghost took a brief nap somewhere else, separately, during the time Jon was sleeping. It's just hard for me to believe Ghost wakes up the very moment Jon's third eye opens. Dream time can be weird, but Ghost was already standing at the edge of the cliff, when Jon left that "forest of the mind" and found that he was Ghost. So, at some point, while Jon was still in the dream forest, Ghost was wide awake and moving through the mountains. It's just very atypical, for wolf-dreams in these stories. Bran is the character whose transitions into wolf-dreaming we read most often. And we never get anything like this intermediate phase in the "forest... vast and cold" before he finds he is Summer. He does talk about other kinds of dreams - the "dreams where the crow comes and tells [him] to fly" are different from the wolf dreams. But the first part of Jon's dream in the Skirling Pass is just unique. I actually have a crackpot theory to explain this dream forest. Not enough reasoning behind it to make a solid argument - but I half wonder if this " dark forest of the mind" isn't referenced in the Pact forged between the CotF and the First Men: Does Jon's Skirling Pass dream take place in " the deep woods" reserved to the Children of the Forest long ago in the Pact? Were those not actually physical landscapes, to begin with... but dreamscapes? Hmm. I wonder... Clearly, Luwin's not completely right. But there's something to this connection between the CotF, for whom the "deep woods" are reserved, and dreaming. Maybe this "forest of the mind" provides a missing link?
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 3, 2016 18:15:08 GMT
"...Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye. "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. Does Jon's Skirling Pass dream take place in " the deep woods" reserved to the Children of the Forest long ago in the Pact? Were those not actually physical landscapes, to begin with... but dreamscapes? Hmm. I wonder... "Bran, you're old enough to know that dreams are only dreams." "Some are, some aren't." Osha poured pale red firemilk into a long gash. Luwin gasped. "The children of the forest could tell you a thing or two about dreaming." Tears were streaming down the maester's face, yet [Luwin] shook his head doggedly. "The children... live only in dreams. Now. Dead and gone..." Clearly, Luwin's not completely right. But there's something to this connection between the CotF, for whom the "deep woods" are reserved, and dreaming. Maybe this "forest of the mind" provides a missing link? Very interesting....now you've got me wondering.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 3, 2016 20:01:13 GMT
2. Where the hell are they? "The forest was vast and cold... and his cry echoed through the forest." Okay, but where's the ****ing forest? Right at the beginning of this chapter, Martin writes that " there was no grass, and they were above the trees." The place Qhorin decides they'll stop to rest is " the highest point of the pass." So... there is no forest. And assuming Jon's third eye doesn't actually open until the weirwood reaches down to "touch" him, we discover that Ghost must have been awake somewhere in those unforested mountains, at the time. You know, while Jon was dreaming. Because the weirwood touches him, and then BOOM... "suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice." In other words, that forest was not physical. This may seem a rather simple explanation to this question, but I've always rather thought that Ghost was dreaming too. Now hear me out here, because at first it doesn't seem to be the case, but it might be. The group stop at the top of the pass and decide to wait until the sun shifts enough for them to be in shadow before they start an exposed descent. Jon thinks he'd really like a chance to walk in the sunshine, so that he can warm himself, but thinks being a live would be preferable. When Jon wakes suddenly from this dream, and they set off again, the sun is nearly setting, so it seems some time has passed. It is not as instantaneous as Jon drifting off and immediately having this dream. If Ghost, who was already nervous at being in the pass, as evidenced by his repeated turning to look behind them, and since he'd just eaten some salt beef with Jon, it could stand to reason that he'd pick a less exposed place to sleep. When they find Ghost again, he's hidden between boulders, and the sun has dipped behind the mountain line, so Ghost can't be far down the road if night has not fallen yet. It's the eagle perched on some rocks further off that cause the group to stop and that's when Jon finds Ghost. The whole thing suggests that Ghost didn't travel far from where he was attacked. I think both Ghost and Jon were dreaming and at the moment that Bran reaches down and touches Ghost, Ghost startles awake and is exposed. That's when the eagle finds him. It also explains why there is a forest, when there should be none and why it disappears. It also explains why Ghost is in a snow drift when there is no snow either. The previous terrain and the terrain in which Ghost is found is not covered in snow. The ground is described as so stony, there's hardly grass. But there are drifts of snow, and where better to hide a white wolf then in a patch of snow? We see later on that the connection between wolves is stronger than we thought, since Ghost knows what each of his remaining siblings is doing in the Dance chapter. Who can say if the wolves don't reach out to one another in their dreams? If say, Ghost was dreaming of forests, he could've been visiting with Nymeria, and it would explain the forest. Or he could've been with Grey Wind too, but I don't remember were they were at the time, and chances are the Rob was not in a forest at the time or resting during the day. If both Ghost and Nymeria were sleeping though, there is a good chance that both of them could be reaching through to their human partners too, just like the children do. Hmmmm. If what you say is correct, and Jon joined Ghost's dream, then it seems very possible that Ghost was not actually physically viewing the valley where Mance's host was gathered. In fact this scene is viewed immediately after the Bran tree reaches down to Ghost to open (Jon's? Ghost's) third eye. So I wonder if Bran didn't open Jon's "third eye" but perhaps opened Ghost's? And perhaps Ghost was viewing the Valley through other means?
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 3, 2016 20:07:42 GMT
Love your avatar, FFR.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 3, 2016 20:40:05 GMT
Love your avatar, FFR. I'm not sure I'm sold on it quite yet, I've kind of grown attached to my old avatar, but I'll give it a chance to grow on me.
But going back to what Jon/Ghost sees in the valley, one other thing troubles me about that scene as well. It seems that a couple of nights pass between Qhorin and Jon's attempt to return to the Fist and when Rattleshirt and Ygritte and co. catch up to them. But when Jon asks if they are going back into the Skirling Pass, Ygritte tells him that there is nothing there, that Mance and his company are already well up the Milkwater marching on the Wall. That seems like an awfully short time for Mance's huge assemblage to have pulled up camp and travelled any sort of distance. So I wonder if what Jon "sees" may have also been a past vision.
ETA: rereading the chapter, perhaps more days elapse than I originally thought, it's left a tad vague. So I suppose it's possible that during the time it took for Qhorin and Jon to make their way through the mountains, that Mance's horde could travel along the river.
ETA again: Ok, now I'm convinced that what Jon/Ghost saw was a past event. He saw a huge horde of people training, tearing great holes in the frozen earth, ect. It did not appear that they were packing up to move camp, which if the chronology was correct they would have almost certainly had to have been doing to have already made their way any length down the Milkwater when Rattlehshirt and company caught up to Jon.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 3, 2016 22:39:19 GMT
Very interesting....now you've got me wondering. Well, to be fair, it's definitely at least half-crackpot. No real evidence for it. Speculative. (But fun.)
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Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 4, 2016 15:45:24 GMT
It's just hard for me to believe Ghost wakes up the very moment Jon's third eye opens. Dream time can be weird, but Ghost was already standing at the edge of the cliff, when Jon left that "forest of the mind" and found that he was Ghost. I don't think it was the exact moment. I think something FFR said earlier is more likely, that Ghost is the one that reaches to Jon, rather than the other way around. When Jon falls asleep the text says, 'W hen he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.' yet there are no direwolves in Jon's dream at all, save Ghost. So is it Jon dreaming or is it Ghost dreaming? Or perhaps thinking? The problem is that it can't be both the opening of Jon's 3rd eye and wolf dream. If Jon is already sharing consciousness with Ghost, then his third eye is already opened. It may be out of focus, but it's there already. He can't be in a dream about direwolves in the forest without that connection already being there. What's lacking is the opening of Ghost's 3rd eye in order for Jon to see in real time. Hmmmm. If what you say is correct, and Jon joined Ghost's dream, then it seems very possible that Ghost was not actually physically viewing the valley where Mance's host was gathered. In fact this scene is viewed immediately after the Bran tree reaches down to Ghost to open (Jon's? Ghost's) third eye. So I wonder if Bran didn't open Jon's "third eye" but perhaps opened Ghost's? And perhaps Ghost was viewing the Valley through other means? Yeah, it is Ghost's 3rd eye that opens here. Remember, it's Ghost that gets the weirwood touch, not Jon. And I would not be surprised at all if Ghost sees the valley by a different mean. When they find Ghost, he is not at the precipice as he was earlier. In other words, what Ghost saw was not the view that can be seen by the humans in the group. Once they find Ghost and see that the eagle is real, Qhorin turns them round and they head back, without ever confirming what Ghost saw. I've said earlier in the third eye thread, that it is not only the kid's eyes that need opening, it's also the wolf's eyes that need opening. I think in this moment, it's Ghost's 3rd eye which is opened and that Ghost, in particular, has an ability beyond the other wolves. I agree with you, it's Ghost, with his lack of a voice, who can call out the strongest. I also think it's here that Ghost gets the ability to stop reaching out. That is what's missing when Jon climbs the Wall and leaves Ghost behind. It's not the Wall that stops Jon feeling or knowing where Ghost is, it's Ghost himself. This probably deserves it's own thread, because I don't want to keep derailing this one. But the evidence points to neither the Wall, nor distance being a barrier to skinchanging abilities. If the Wall stopped it, then BR would not be able to watch Bran's dreams, and if distance was a factor then Arya would not be able to see what Nymeria is doing while she's in Essos.
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Post by snowfyre on Mar 4, 2016 19:25:28 GMT
that Ghost is the one that reaches to Jon, rather than the other way around. When Jon falls asleep the text says, 'W hen he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.' yet there are no direwolves in Jon's dream at all, save Ghost. So is it Jon dreaming or is it Ghost dreaming? Or perhaps thinking? The problem is that it can't be both the opening of Jon's 3rd eye and wolf dream. If Jon is already sharing consciousness with Ghost, then his third eye is already opened. It may be out of focus, but it's there already. He can't be in a dream about direwolves in the forest without that connection already being there. What's lacking is the opening of Ghost's 3rd eye in order for Jon to see in real time. So, yeah. Weird dream, huh? I think I follow you on the wolf himself dreaming and having a third eye, etc. I just resist the approach, because I can't find much precedent in the text for it. Jojen talks to Bran a good bit about opening his third eye. He also makes a point of telling him: " Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you." We also know, generally - from all kinds of clues, that the wolves can sense one another as members of the same pack. There's just not any discussion of the wolves having third eyes of their own, apart from the "third eye" of the human warg/skinchanger. Not saying it's impossible, or anything. Just that I have trouble connecting it into the story we're told. But explaining this dream at all is somewhat troublesome... so perhaps that's not surprising. It's one of the reasons I find this dream so fascinating. It forces us to consider things from new angles. I do tend to think the POV/self in the first part of the dream is probably Jon's integrated/transcendant self - incorporating both man and wolf. Partly because when he approaches his weirwood brother, he smells " wolf and tree and boy." In other words... Bran, in that dream, was the integrated/transcendant Bran - not just the boy or the wolf, or the tree, but all three. We're not told how Jon appears from Bran's POV, but I'd guess something similar was going on. Now, does that imply that Ghost was asleep and dreaming? Idk.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 4, 2016 20:58:36 GMT
that Ghost is the one that reaches to Jon, rather than the other way around. When Jon falls asleep the text says, 'W hen he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.' yet there are no direwolves in Jon's dream at all, save Ghost. So is it Jon dreaming or is it Ghost dreaming? Or perhaps thinking? The problem is that it can't be both the opening of Jon's 3rd eye and wolf dream. If Jon is already sharing consciousness with Ghost, then his third eye is already opened. It may be out of focus, but it's there already. He can't be in a dream about direwolves in the forest without that connection already being there. What's lacking is the opening of Ghost's 3rd eye in order for Jon to see in real time. So, yeah. Weird dream, huh? I think I follow you on the wolf himself dreaming and having a third eye, etc. I just resist the approach, because I can't find much precedent in the text for it. Jojen talks to Bran a good bit about opening his third eye. He also makes a point of telling him: " Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you." We also know, generally - from all kinds of clues, that the wolves can sense one another as members of the same pack. There's just not any discussion of the wolves having third eyes of their own, apart from the "third eye" of the human warg/skinchanger. Not saying it's impossible, or anything. Just that I have trouble connecting it into the story we're told. But explaining this dream at all is somewhat troublesome... so perhaps that's not surprising. It's one of the reasons I find this dream so fascinating. It forces us to consider things from new angles. I do tend to think the POV/self in the first part of the dream is probably Jon's integrated/transcendant self - incorporating both man and wolf. Partly because when he approaches his weirwood brother, he smells " wolf and tree and boy." In other words... Bran, in that dream, was the integrated/transcendant Bran - not just the boy or the wolf, or the tree, but all three. We're not told how Jon appears from Bran's POV, but I'd guess something similar was going on. Now, does that imply that Ghost was asleep and dreaming? Idk. I think there is a clue in Bloodraven's lair: My guess is the skulls in the niches were given a place of honor, perhaps because they, like Bloodraven, were previous greenseers that inhabited the cave. The presence of a bear and a wolf skull amongst the humans, giants, and Children perhaps shows that a wolf and a bear could have possessed the green sight before.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 0:03:37 GMT
In relation to this theory has anyone noticed in the novels if Sansa and Rickon are affected by Ghost's call? Obviously there isn't much to go on for Rickon but for Sansa could this be connected to her becoming more of a Stark in her mind. Such as that castle building chapter of hers in ASOS?
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