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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 17, 2016 16:36:05 GMT
I'm thinking that Coldhands could be a vessel. Random associations ahead. Coldhands has black eyes like the ravens, speaks to the ravens, or at least understands them. He speaks some other language, the old tongue most likely, but it could something else. We are told that all the ravens are hosting dead Singers, and the trees [roots at least] are host to the Singers, Bloodraven and the crows. So what if Coldhands has been brought out of a raven or weirwood to inhabit the body he is wearing? I know it's far-fetched. CH could be anoyone. Bran the builder, the monster, even. Coming back to this 'theory' with some quotes. Coldhands, the singing raven man. Again, his eyes match the ravens'. Speaks with ravens, has a lot of raven friends, and runs a route between the cave and the Wall like a messenger raven. The whole group of ravens come back to roost together with CH at night. I'm looking at this sideways and again asking the question, Could it be that Coldhands' animus/consciousness was kept in the cave ravens before returning to a human body? Is he a bird in human clothing? Or could it be that Coldhands is actually a Singer (cotf)? Or some hybrid... a man-child-raven? A Monster.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 16:47:14 GMT
I've been thinking about Coldhands and how he fits with the version of the Long Night as I interpret it and I think he is the Last Hero resurrected. Consider this passage:
The Last Hero's blade snapped. Now compare to this passage about Waymar Royce:
I believe Waymar's account of fighting the Others is meant to echo the Last Hero's. Both swords broke. We know what happened to Waymar...he died. I think the Last Hero died also, but Bran tells us the children "helped him"..."helped him" by resurrecting him.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 17, 2016 16:58:48 GMT
"Do all the birds have singers in them?” “All,”Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven …but in those days, the birds would speak the words." Hah, we've done it again Flagons! I just post about this on Mel's Drowned Man thread.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 17, 2016 17:11:44 GMT
I've been thinking about Coldhands and how he fits with the version of the Long Night as I interpret it and I think he is the Last Hero resurrected. Consider this passage: The Last Hero's blade snapped. Now compare to this passage about Waymar Royce: I believe Waymar's account of fighting the Others is meant to echo the Last Hero's. Both swords broke. We know what happened to Waymar...he died. I think the Last Hero died also, but Bran tells us the children "helped him"..."helped him" by resurrecting him. I like this too. Could be the cotf "Otherized" him. They took his consciousness and put it back into his body. A loophole in the second life rule.
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Post by min on Apr 17, 2016 19:58:35 GMT
Interesting. Or could it be that the cotf or singer inhabiting the body of CH has access to a dead man's memories in the manner of the faceless men.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 18, 2016 1:19:17 GMT
Interesting. Or could it be that the cotf or singer inhabiting the body of CH has access to a dead man's memories in the manner of the faceless men. Thinking more about this it really is an intriguing angle. The Faceless Men hold the memories of the dead in their faces which are kept in the sanctum. The singers store the memories of the dead in the weirwoods. (Well, their bodies die, but are the souls tucked away for storage before the body gives out?) Also, there is the singer, possibly a greenseer, that Brandor sees in the caves within the weirwood roots. He tries to speak, but only his mouth moves. Maybe he was trying to say, "Say, got any corn?"
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Post by min on Apr 18, 2016 2:04:07 GMT
Hahahahah! "got any corn" - CH seems to have the affectation of a man of the Night's watch. If it's true that the body in being used by a singer/cotf; how can this be reconciled? The bones remember too? At least Othor's arm doesn't stop moving around until it's well rotted away south and/or they are cracked and finally remember they are dead.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 18, 2016 2:18:38 GMT
Hahahahah! "got any corn" - CH seems to have the affectation of a man of the Night's watch. If it's true that the body in being used by a singer/cotf; how can this be reconciled? The bones remember too? At least Othor's arm doesn't stop moving around until it's well rotted away south and/or they are cracked and finally remember they are dead. The singer angle is a little difficult to get to. CH is in the know, somehow, but the ravens could explain that connection. I think the ravens were the go between in men and singers first communications and that is shown by Coldhands actions with the birds. I've never really dug into the bones remember stuff. I should since that's a big deal in the story. The weirwoods are likened to bones and blood.
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Post by min on Apr 18, 2016 2:59:40 GMT
I'm not really sure that CH memories are necessarily stored in a weirwood. I'm not sure how that happens. I think you have to be a greenseer and wed to the tree with weirwood paste. Or at least drink from the green fountain as Jojen puts it. Even Varamyr was bounced out of a weirwood tree, so I think access has some preconditions.
CH has the ancient mojo with the ravens and they do his bidding. But he sure sounds like one of the black brothers. I don't think it's out of the question that the birds could communicate with the Watch at one time. My intuition tells me that there is an underlying connection to the faceless men in here somewhere.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Apr 18, 2016 3:03:53 GMT
I don't think it's out of the question that the birds could communicate with the Watch at one time. I think they did, and in some cases still do. (I have a theory somewhere that Benjen Stark is now inhabiting Mormont's raven. )
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Post by min on Apr 18, 2016 3:15:22 GMT
Yes, I am wondering about that bird. It comes pretty close to busting out a tune.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 27, 2016 12:30:53 GMT
Could it be that Coldhands' animus/consciousness was kept in the cave ravens before returning to a human body? They took his consciousness and put it back into his body 100% on board with this train of thought. If CH's body died and he went into the ravens, part of that consciousness would be with him forever. What if Varamyr had waited until his own body was wighted? And then fought to reinhabit his own body?
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 27, 2016 19:50:17 GMT
What if Varamyr had waited until his own body was wighted? And then fought to reinhabit his own body? Death severs the connection between body and spirit. When Varamyr's body died he was floating free and lost control over where he went. The only reason why he went into One Eye is because that was the only connection he had left. The only way I could imagine putting a warg/skinchanger into another vessel after their own body dies is if magic occurred and intercepted the spirit while it was yet floating free.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 28, 2016 0:46:12 GMT
With Varamyr, he had left his body for Thistle's. Varamyr was barely tethered to his own body while fighting for hers. And that is what sent him on his journey. He encountered lots of hosts, but couldn't stay within them because those others had no connection to his own vessels. The man and the wolves. So, yeah. If he had not tried to steal another body first, Var might have had a different outcome. A fight for his own body. Although, that might require an outside source to help. Another skinchanger to move the conciousness from one host to the next. It would depend on the individual, I presume, in this scenario. Something I brought up a year or more ago is that Jojen, the greendreamer, could be another Coldhands. Let's call him Coldfeet. A new servant to the residents of the cave. IIRC, Jojen says he will die at home/in the Neck. Once Jojen is inside the cave, he becomes worried about death. Could it be that he will be coldhanded before returning to the swamp to die a true death?
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 4, 2016 2:29:10 GMT
min... Coldhands afraid of fire. When I last read that I passed it off as a highly flammable dude watching the flames in fear. Your takeaway as a fear of fire from the cotf is great. The singer, raven connection with Coldhands is there. Now you've got me thinking that he could have been a greenseer whose tree was burned. Anyway, nice call.
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