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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 18:37:20 GMT
I understand what you are saying here, but Thistle's spirit is yet in her bones and couldn't it be her that was looking at Varamyr? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Thistle is the only one that could possibly recognise Varamyr because she knew him. But she's not a skinchanger, so how could she recognise a warg within a wolf? We have the example of Bran in Summer encountering Varamyr too. Both of them recognise each other for what they are. Meaning Bran, the presence within Summer, recognises a warg when he sees one. So the Cold inside Thistle recognises that One-Eye is housing a warg, but it's Thistle who recognises the warg is Varamyr. See what I mean? On her own, or if she was alive, she wouldn't have recognise him at all, because she can't, she's not a skinchanger. She saw his spirit floating on the breeze. It wasn't in One Eye yet. The wind raised Thistle and it was moving his spirit along. Maybe when you're dead you can see other spirits?
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 8, 2016 18:54:29 GMT
Yeah, I dont know about the Thistle thing. I'm kind of on both sides. Thistle shouldn't be able to see Varamyr since she is not a skinchanger. (and she as no eyes) Its the blue entity staring out from the eyeholes. Not sure if Varamyr left a sliver of his conciousness behind since he did not succeed cementing his self to her body.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 8, 2016 18:59:30 GMT
Dont recall having thought about this before... Bran never recognised Coldhands as a skinchanger during their time together.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 19:07:08 GMT
Yeah, I dont know about the Thistle thing. I'm kind of on both sides. Thistle shouldn't be able to see Varamyr since she is not a skinchanger. (and she as no eyes) Its the blue entity staring out from the eyeholes. Not sure if Varamyr left a sliver of his conciousness behind since he did not succeed cementing his self to her body. The blue light indicates something. That much we can agree on, but "what" it is I think is still undetermined. Is it an entity? Is it a power? Is it another more powerful skinchanger? Right now I'm leaning towards whatever the Drowned God is. I'm thinking the Drowned God is the old gods...it's just that the north is upside down and "under water" or rather under the ironborn's part on the wheel of time, so the old gods would be underwater as well, so in this way they are the Drowned God. So, if we recognize that the Drowned Old Gods are underwater and active in the north, then the blue light in the eyes of the wights is a physical manifestation that it is a real thing. The drowned old god powers still exist but they are blown around like the holy spirit, whereas before they were underground inside the weirwoods. Anything this power touches would be raised like the ironborn resuscitate the drowned men.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 19:07:50 GMT
Dont recall having thought about this before... Bran never recognised Coldhands as a skinchanger during their time together. Bran called him a monster, but he never acknowledges Coldhands as a warg or skinchanger.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 20:12:38 GMT
I am thinking this is how it used to be. Magic used to be carried about by the goddess of the wind, so when the Others were defeated the hinge was flipped down forcing magic underground within the roots of the weirwoods. Now that it's flipped back open again magic was set free. Direwolves and dragons appeared and the old gods became the Drowned God once again.
Coldhands is a remnant of that time when the old gods were the Drowned God before the hinge was shut and warded. He has to stay in the north or he ceases to exist. When the hinge was shut he maybe didn't move around like he does now.
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Post by min on May 8, 2016 21:09:49 GMT
Dont recall having thought about this before... Bran never recognised Coldhands as a skinchanger during their time together. Bran called him a monster, but he never acknowledges Coldhands as a warg or skinchanger. And then Coldhands says "I'm your monster." Going back to Bran's vision of the man sacrificed in front of a weirwood and Bran, screaming NO and tasting the blood. But I think this is timelord territory. I like your interpretation of the frozen hell reserved for Starks or Snarks. It calls to mind Jon teasing Arya that one day they would find her frozen in the ice clutching needle. Arya's monster is Jaqen H'gar who she thinks of as a grumkin; a creature offering three death wishes. The concept that Jon must breathe in the cold to re-animate is fascinating given his encounter with Othor. Recall that Othor tries to jam his hand down Jon's throat cutting off his breath: Dead Othor slammed into him, knocking him off his feet. Then he saw it, a shadow in the shadows, sliding toward the inner door that led to Mormont's sleeping cell, a man-shape cloaked and hooded .. but beneath the hood, its eyes shone with an icy blue radiance ... Jon's breath went out of him a the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. It's face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe ....
- I think it's curious that Othor was cloaked and hooded; in other words faceless, a shadow within a shadow and icy, cold hands. Make what you will of that. I'm reminded of Pate's encounter with the Alchemist who was also cloaked and hooded, his face shrouded and unseen, unknowable.
Arya also has a deathly choking experience when she is initiated as the ugly little girl. She follows the kindly man down into caverns beneath the canals. She is also under the sea. "Sit," the priest commanded. She sat. "Now close your eyes, child." She closed her eyes. "This will hurt," he warned her, "but pain is the price of power. Do not move. " Still as a stone, she thought. She sat un-moving. The cut was quick, the blade sharp. By rights the metal should have been cold against her flesh, but it felt warm instead. She could feel the blood washing down her face, a rippling red curtain falling across her brow and cheeks and chin, and she understood why the priest had made her close her eyes. When it reached he lips the taste was salt and copper. She licked at it and shivered. "Bring me the face," said the kindly man. The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, "Drink this," and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was only Arya. - Noting here that like Bran and Dany; Arya is also required to consume a mysterious potion. "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. "Stay still. This will feel queer. you may be dizzy, but you must not move." Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old. The leather scraped across her brow, dry and stiff, but as her blood soaked into it, it softened and turned supple. Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, "Breathe child, breathe out the fear, Shake off the shadows. He is dead, She is dead, Her pain is gone. Breathe." - Faceless Men not only look and behave like the deceased person; what they do goes deeper accessing memories, sights, sounds, emotions, physical sensations. The disguise is infallible. Not even Marwyn notices that Pate has been replaced by the Alchemist. If Othor is an abomination in the strictest sense of skinchanger law; then something else is riding that dead horse. As far as the intel involved; ravens and crows are convenient spies.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 21:19:04 GMT
Jon's breath went out of him a the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. It's face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe ....I love that you've brought this up! This scene makes more sense if Othor was trying to suffocate him and then resuscitate him again with the cold. It makes me think that Jon is the real target even though they wanted to kill Mormont as well. The Drowned God wants Jon as a dead commander.
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Post by min on May 8, 2016 21:55:54 GMT
Jon's breath went out of him a the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. It's face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe ....I love that you've brought this up! This scene makes more sense if Othor was trying to suffocate him and then resuscitate him again with the cold. It makes me think that Jon is the real target even though they wanted to kill Mormont as well. The Drowned God wants Jon as a dead commander. Or a cold god. LOL Othor has something of a faceless man aspect about him. It's the many-faced god who gives the orders on who is given the "gift". Jon describes Othor as moon faced and his arm is like a white snake with five black heads. Makes you think of Bran's grave worms for tree roots. As Davos said in the last episode, the drowned god and the tree god are the same thing. I'm good with that. Drawing the Night Watch out of Castle Black, set a number of events in motion; Sam meets Coldhands and given the door code for the black gate; Bran is brought through to Coldhands; Jon finds the broken horn and obsidian stash.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 23:08:42 GMT
I love that you've brought this up! This scene makes more sense if Othor was trying to suffocate him and then resuscitate him again with the cold. It makes me think that Jon is the real target even though they wanted to kill Mormont as well. The Drowned God wants Jon as a dead commander. Or a cold god. LOL Othor has something of a faceless man aspect about him. It's the many-faced god who gives the orders on who is given the "gift". Jon describes Othor as moon faced and his arm is like a white snake with five black heads. Makes you think of Bran's grave worms for tree roots. As Davos said in the last episode, the drowned god and the tree god are the same thing. I'm good with that. Drawing the Night Watch out of Castle Black, set a number of events in motion; Sam meets Coldhands and given the door code for the black gate; Bran is brought through to Coldhands; Jon finds the broken horn and obsidian stash. I was thinking back to some of the origin stories of Westeros and how there was a god of the sea and a goddess of the wind. They would be the "old gods" that are now drowned. If you combine wind with water, it can get quite cold! Just yesterday I was spraying out the bird bath and my hand got wet, and even though it was nearly 80 degrees outside, the wind blowing on my wet hand was so cold! I agree that Othor has a faceless man look to him and he was there to deliver Jon's gift. Great way to put it, and I quite agree!
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 9, 2016 1:02:43 GMT
Dont recall having thought about this before... Bran never recognised Coldhands as a skinchanger during their time together. No he doesn't ever call him a skinchanger, nor recognise him as one on site, the way he does with Varamyr in One-Eye. But he does recognise that he uses the birds to communicate information and that the elk does his bidding. I'm wondering if the body itself has to be alive in order for a skinchanger recognise another as one. One-Eye, like Orell's eagle are alive, so other skinchangers recognise their presence. Remember Jon doesn't recognise that Orell'e eagle, or Varamyr as being skinchangers, but he does recognise Borroq for one on site a year later. Could be the first time they encounter a skinchanger the boys don't realise what it is they're feeling.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 10, 2016 18:53:09 GMT
Now that I've lifted the ban on discussing Season 6, I'll ask if the revelation of Benjen as CH and how he became CH, is applicable to the canon and if so, how.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 10, 2016 20:12:51 GMT
Now that I've lifted the ban on discussing Season 6, I'll ask if the revelation of Benjen as CH and how he became CH, is applicable to the canon and if so, how. I think this is show invention only. I can't accept Leaf's sentiment of "long ago" as a couple of years in the past. The Black eyes and the unusual tongue Coldhands speaks, along with the communication with the ravens, all point to some one else. Now if Benjen has suffered, or will suffer, a similar fate as Coldhands, well, I'd buy that for a dollar. Honestly, I thought we will see Jojen (Coldfeet ) as a similar undead being.
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Post by Stormborn13 on Jul 8, 2020 1:45:23 GMT
Coldhands is Will
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 8, 2020 15:52:56 GMT
Will? Please expand upon your thoughts...
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