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Post by Ser Duncan on May 5, 2016 16:28:07 GMT
To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow. I was thinking a reinterpretation of these sentences might be in order. It might help us decipher what Quaithe is trying to tell Dany. To go north, you must journey south, to the west you must go east. Ok so this is only logical. You can't go north if you don't start off somewhere south of where you want to go. Same with west and east. This isn't so much instructions, as it is a take stock of who and where you are advice. Even if you take it as instructions, then Dany has already achieved the first part, meaning she is already south and east of where she wants to go. So, quite straightforward. On the figurative front, Quaithe is telling her to know who she is and where she is. To have a sound footing of what she is and what she wants to become. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow. Now this sentence is a pair of paradoxes. You can go forward and back at the same time. Unless you are walking backwards, you are always moving forward, no matter the direction you're taking. And it is also possible to go forwards while moving backwards. So what is the meaning of this? I'm inclined to take it as advice on knowing one's history. Whether it's emotional, physical or spiritual, one needs to know where they came from and what happened before they arrived in order to move forward with purpose. The old chestnut -- those who don't remember their history, are doomed to repeat it. I think Quaithe is telling her figuratively to know what happened in the past. Her experiences in the House of the Undying is one step in this direction. She travels through past, present and possibly future in order to gain knowledge. But I don't think she's completed the going back yet. Dany gets some backstory to the immediate events before her birth from Barristan, but that's not enough. I don't think she'll know enough until Tyrion and/or Marwyn reach her. Even if she does go to Vaes Dothrak, she will learn little there. I think the only thing she'll do in Mother of Mountains is gain perspective, and help her with the advice she needs from the first sentence. Now the second paradox is the interesting one. We can never touch the light. Not even today, with lamps that won't burn you if you touch them, all you're doing is touching the means of how the light is generated. Light can only touch us. And we are only aware that light is light because of darkness. Without its contrast, we wouldn't know what light is. One thing about light and dark that's interesting, is that darkness is always first. We think light is first, but darkness was there before it, and light serves to banish the dark. So what is Quaithe telling her? To do the impossible? I don't think so. I like min's interpretation, that light represents knowledge. But light can also mean an awakening. Or an uncovering of things hidden. I think Quaithe is telling Dany she must choose. Choose to live in darkness or come out into the light. Figuratively, she's tell Dany that she will not know what light is until she's experienced the dark. In other words, she will not know what path to choose until she's lived through the worst she can be and the best she can be. And importantly, to realise and remember she, like all of us, has both light and dark inside of her. While she has to choose which will be her ruling force, the other must be there too, and to acknowledge it. Maybe even use the opposite side in order to achieve her goal.
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Post by min on May 5, 2016 21:07:57 GMT
I like this interpretation of Quaithe's intentions and answers the question Why. All these prophecies and riddles are layered with meaning. I also think they are literally instruction for arriving at a destination. At each cardinal point, something must occur; Dany will face some conflict or challenge that will provide her with the wisdom she needs to go forward, to define her purpose or meet her destiny. When she arrives in Qarth; Pyat Pree tells her that she is standing at the crossroads of the world: the bridge to the east and west and the door to the north and south. That's a very good description of the Wall. When she enters the door of the House of Undying she is traversing the 'shadow' beneath the Wall. In a way, Quaithe is giving instruction for navigating a maze; not unlike Pyat Pree's instructions to only taking the door on the right and only take the stair upwards, never down. The HoU representing the southern cardinal point and Vaes Dothrak the northern cardinal point makes sense. To go west, go east is confusing unless you consider that if she travels east from any location in Essos; she will eventually end up in the west. She'll have to cross an ocean; but how else will she get to Bear Island. LOL. Directions for travel is always defined by where she happens to be on the map. Going north to Vaes Dothrak is in a sense going back to where she started. She recieved visions about Vaes Dothrak; a line of crones exiting a pool of water making obiesance to Dany. Before she can move forward she has to fulfill this part of the vision. The Dothraki have their own prophecy about the clans uniting under one leader. It isn't Quaithe who is moving her to make any conscious decisions about the direction she takes. This is out of Quaithe's hands or ability to manipulate. It's Drogon who makes off with Dany and takes her back to his home on the plains. So why does Quaithe tell Dany anything. For all the reasons you mentioned. biblical symbolism of the cardinal points
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Post by Melifeather on May 5, 2016 22:31:13 GMT
min , I really loved your link to the cardinal points! While I agree that Quaithe is providing directions, we have no idea if she's trying to help her or get her to do something that helps someone else. Pyat Pree may have given her correct information, but he had his own agenda and if she hadn't escaped she would have been a prisoner of the Undying. Quaithe was one of the 3 representatives of Qarth who returned with Jhogo. Once Dany is in Qarth, Xaro and Pyat offer promises, but Quaithe offers warnings. Is this to gain her trust? I knew about the significance of the east for religious reasons. Many gravestones face east for the coming resurrection. If west represents the future, then Quaithe does seem to be telling her how to navigate her way to Westeros. I really liked the symbolism of the west: Only in Westeros, the sea is in the north. I think many readers would agree with the assessment that the Others coming out of the north seem to represent evil and death. For the description of the north they actually included King of the North. That was a fun little tidbit! That last bit...is that a reference to the Nights King?
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Post by Melifeather on May 5, 2016 22:42:07 GMT
The fact that there are any navigation instructions is surely evidence of hinges and doors. I was thinking about this last night. If the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world, then there must be more. And, would a hinge necessarily only hold one door? Could there be a series of doors being held by the Wall? And what is the purpose of gates? Are they ways through the doors without disturbing the hinge? Because I'm thinking the hinges are what's warded.
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Post by min on May 5, 2016 22:44:45 GMT
Surprised the heck out of me when I googled it. The king of the north and the false king! No kidding. Also the bits about sunrise and sunset since we have a prophecy about that as well. It all depends on the character's orientation. It's an open question whether Quaithe is friend or foe; but she seems to be looking out for Dany's interests. I wonder if there will be another Quaithe visitation in the books. The red lot consider her the savior of the world... as if they can trusted. LOL.
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Post by snowfyre on May 5, 2016 23:11:51 GMT
First, I have to apologize for not joining this thread earlier. Sorry, min! Not sure if I can catch up entirely, but saw the discussion on Quaithe's puzzle, and thought I'd toss this in... For a while now, I've enjoyed thinking that her words here might be (subtly) directed at the reader, as much as they are at Dany personally. As in... Or, you know, something like that. Not sure that's the best rephrasing, but it sorta gets at my thought.
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Post by Melifeather on May 5, 2016 23:14:47 GMT
Well Dany is a Jesus-come-again messianic character since she's "in the east ". If the Others and wights do end up invading Westeros then her dragons would seem God sent.
I'm not sure she'll actually go to Westeros now that the hinge appears to be open.
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Post by min on May 5, 2016 23:20:01 GMT
The fact that there are any navigation instructions is surely evidence of hinges and doors. I was thinking about this last night. If the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world, then there must be more. And, would a hinge necessarily only hold one door? Could there be a series of doors being held by the Wall? And what is the purpose of gates? Are they ways through the doors without disturbing the hinge? Because I'm thinking the hinges are what's warded. I'm guessing that the Dothraki high holy place is another great hinge and that the hinges are seamed together. Entering one door and there are four more, just as we are shown in the HoU. Something in the form of Pyat Pree tries to get her to enter the wrong door. I think there are at least two doors on the wall; one leading to the HoU and one leading to Winterfell. The Black Gate seems to me a device of the House of Black and White. A ghost face hung on a stone wall. Another place of power that has had some influence on the making and warding of the Wall. Dany passes through the doors to the HoB&W before she enters the chamber of the undying. We know the Black Gate is locked unless you have the key or access to the back door through other sorceries. On another note; I've been very curious about the tale of the winged knight who rode a falcon and commanded eagles; fought the griffin king. This sounds like a skinchanger story from the legends and I wonder if the construction of the Eyrie with it's gates and way castles is allegory for the Wall's construction, as well as Castle Black; if the winged knight is a story about the night's king. How does House Arryn know about weirwood thrones and the Black Gate (moon door). It's family legend, like Lan the Clever and Bran the Builder. Because Dany sees the magic carpet; I'm inclined to think that the Wall is also warded that the wall was built of rock (either obsidion or oily black stone) and contained the original stone gate. Then becoming the bloody gate when the warding was raised and then covered in ice to make the snow gate and the Wall. Original forts and waycastles built one on top of the other to make Castle Black. A lot more to think about there.
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Post by min on May 5, 2016 23:22:22 GMT
First, I have to apologize for not joining this thread earlier. Sorry, min ! Not sure if I can catch up entirely, but saw the discussion on Quaithe's puzzle, and thought I'd toss this in... For a while now, I've enjoyed thinking that her words here might be (subtly) directed at the reader, as much as they are at Dany personally. As in... Or, you know, something like that. Not sure that's the best rephrasing, but it sorta gets at my thought. I agree, the reader is meant to puzzle it out. LOL
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Post by snowfyre on May 5, 2016 23:25:32 GMT
I sort of just take the phrase "hinge of the world" to mean... a turning point, or a place of crisis.
Mel says some other curious things as well, about the Wall and her presence there. Her comment to Jon, that it is "my place, as well as yours," and her POV reflection that she is more powerful at the Wall even than she had been in Asshai.
Seems like those comments should all hang together.
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Post by min on May 6, 2016 0:16:08 GMT
I sort of just take the phrase "hinge of the world" to mean... a turning point, or a place of crisis.Mel says some other curious things as well, about the Wall and her presence there. Her comment to Jon, that it is "my place, as well as yours," and her POV reflection that she is more powerful at the Wall even than she had been in Asshai. Seems like those comments should all hang together. Thanks for commenting Slowfyre. I don't know about you; but I'll be dissappointed if there isn't a crisis. LOL Mel knows a lot about the history of the Wall that she isn't telling anyone. For someone who avoids dreaming because it's the 'little death'; she also makes the surprising statement that she dreamed of Jon Snow and has also talked to dead kings and unborn children. The Wall seems to be an amplifier, or source, or conduit of magic power, like the red comet. Perhaps the Wall is made of comet stuff, considering the serpent and the sword imagery that Benjen gives us and the oily black stone found a Moat Cailin. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the red lot who raised the blood magic on the Wall in the first place; way back when Azor Ahai was walking on Planetos. Considering Mel's obsession with the ancient enemy and rituals around staying up all night; the Wall could very well be as much her place as Jon's. The Dothraki have their own apocalyptic legends. We have the story of ghost grass killing all other grasses and that's the way the world will end.
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Post by snowfyre on May 6, 2016 1:14:13 GMT
Good catch there, about Mel having "dreamed" of the Wall. That's always stood out to me, too. Here are a few more ideas. Tell me what you think: (1) There are weirwood trees, frozen into the Wall, at intervals along its length. Possibly at the locations of the NW fortresses. (Certainly there is one at the Nightfort.) And, KEY POINT: Weirwoods focus, or amplify magic. Recall the monstrous tree at Whitetree: (2) Not sure if the Red Lot played a significant role in ancient Westeros, though it's possible. But there are clear ties to Asshai. Recall Bran's last weir-vision, of the woman with the bronze blade, working bloodmagic at the Winterfell heart tree - and the clear echoes with Mirri Maz Duur's ritual in Drogo's tent. Here's a crazy idea, that I'm not entirely sure I can support with evidence ... but: What if the Old Tongue of the First Men is the same as (or closely related to) the language of Asshai? "Maegi" ~ "Maege" Mormont? (3) What if the Dothraki are somewhat similar to the First Men, in terms of having history with Asshai, except that theirs is more recent? In other words: their history and culture is, in part, defined by through the influence of Asshai? I commented on this elsewhere, and gave my reasons, but an intimate history with Asshai would go a long way toward explaining certain oddities related to the Dothraki. Such as: - those statues in Vaes Dothrak, "misshapen and terrible," that Ser Jorah says "likely come from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai" - legends of "ghost grass" that exists in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, and the sense of doom and fear that one day all the land will be covered in it. ( Why would Dothraki culture be carrying around legends and myths concerning the Shadowlands, unless there was some history there?) - the Dothraki dread of abandoned, "dead" cities in the Red Waste, full of "ghosts," where the "gods are gone," and "the dead feast by night;" the belief that "such places are best shunned." - the strong cultural taboo against bloodmagic, and the fear and revulsion of the maegi. - the remarkable, and clearly pertinent, convergence of Dothraki prophecy with the prophecies reported by Mel as having been written on "ancient scrolls of Asshai." Princes, Dragons, Stallions that Mount Worlds, horses of fire riding through the night sky... the khal of khals. ... Shierak qiya translating to "bleeding star." And the fact that Rheagar identified his son Aegon as the PtwP because he "was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." (Just a few thoughts.)
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Post by Melifeather on May 6, 2016 1:31:05 GMT
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 6, 2016 1:39:19 GMT
Only in Westeros, the sea is in the north. I think many readers would agree with the assessment that the Others coming out of the north seem to represent evil and death I agree with you here. While reading the the material min linked to, I couldn't help but think of Tolkien. (Wonder why?) In his story the north was good and bad. The North was a place of great evil in the past yet it also provided a place for the Rangers, or Dúnedain, to do their thing. So not all evil. The west and the sea correlation is quite intriguing. The Dothraki fear the west and the sea. The Westerosi know that if you sail west you will die. The Narrow Sea is known, but the Sunset Sea is an unknown. Almost like a portal that is unobtainable. Could the Sunset Sea be a door without a hinge?
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 6, 2016 2:17:51 GMT
Good catch there, about Mel having "dreamed" of the Wall. That's always stood out to me, too. Here are a few more ideas. Tell me what you think: (1) There are weirwood trees, frozen into the Wall, at intervals along its length. Possibly at the locations of the NW fortresses. (Certainly there is one at the Nightfort.) And, KEY POINT: Weirwoods focus, or amplify magic. Recall the monstrous tree at Whitetree: (2) Not sure if the Red Lot played a significant role in ancient Westeros, though it's possible. But there are clear ties to Asshai. Recall Bran's last weir-vision, of the woman with the bronze blade, working bloodmagic at the Winterfell heart tree - and the clear echoes with Mirri Maz Duur's ritual in Drogo's tent. Here's a crazy idea, that I'm not entirely sure I can support with evidence ... but: What if the Old Tongue of the First Men is the same as (or closely related to) the language of Asshai? "Maegi" ~ "Maege" Mormont? (3) What if the Dothraki are somewhat similar to the First Men, in terms of having history with Asshai, except that theirs is more recent? In other words: their history and culture is, in part, defined by through the influence of Asshai? I commented on this elsewhere, and gave my reasons, but an intimate history with Asshai would go a long way toward explaining certain oddities related to the Dothraki. Such as: - those statues in Vaes Dothrak, "misshapen and terrible," that Ser Jorah says "likely come from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai" - legends of "ghost grass" that exists in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, and the sense of doom and fear that one day all the land will be covered in it. ( Why would Dothraki culture be carrying around legends and myths concerning the Shadowlands, unless there was some history there?) - the Dothraki dread of abandoned, "dead" cities in the Red Waste, full of "ghosts," where the "gods are gone," and "the dead feast by night;" the belief that "such places are best shunned." - the strong cultural taboo against bloodmagic, and the fear and revulsion of the maegi. - the remarkable, and clearly pertinent, convergence of Dothraki prophecy with the prophecies reported by Mel as having been written on "ancient scrolls of Asshai." Princes, Dragons, Stallions that Mount Worlds, horses of fire riding through the night sky... the khal of khals. ... Shierak qiya translating to "bleeding star." And the fact that Rheagar identified his son Aegon as the PtwP because he "was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." (Just a few thoughts.) Yeah! The weirwoods in the Wall. The Black Gate is made of weirwood and had a weirwood reaching for the moon above ground. I always thought that must be the same tree. The trees have eyes again... except for the blinded Black Gate weirwood so it had to reach out above ground to see. The Essos folks playing a roll in the Long Night in Westeros, well, I've been on that wagon for a long time. I admit, I've not talked about it in some time yet the Watch and the Red Rahloo crowd have some very similar similarities. That some of the folks from the East traveled west to help end the LN then left for home afterward to spread tales of the heroes of the War for the Dawn. When you consider that the prophecies of the East concern the West then it all comes around full circle. And all circles presuppose they'll end where they begin, but only in their leaving can they ever come back around again.
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