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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 4, 2016 17:15:55 GMT
Agreed. It happened sometime after the Rebellion, but right before the Starks got their wolves. But do you think GRRM has the time line out of order? You mean with the Pact coming after the Long Night? No I think it's possible the events happened in the order Martin gives us. The way the story is told in the books makes the Long Night sound like a natural event, say a mini Ice age, and the Others came because they could. According to canon, both the Children and the First Men fought against the WW/Others with the Children driven deep into their caves because they couldn't resist them either. Only until the FM and the CotF banned together did they manage to fight them off. Just because the Children and the FM had already signed a pact does not mean they were pally with each other, it just means they stopped killing each other. I think what we see here, in Martin's order of events, is the making of the first human greenseer. The last hero ended up in a weirwood somewhere. Maybe even Winterfell, if I had my choice of spots to wed him to a tree.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 4, 2016 17:18:50 GMT
Agreed. It happened sometime after the Rebellion, but right before the Starks got their wolves. But do you think GRRM has the time line out of order? You mean with the Pact coming after the Long Night? No I think it's possible the events happened in the order Martin gives us. The way the story is told in the books makes the Long Night sound like a natural event, say a mini Ice age, and the Others came because they could. According to canon, both the Children and the First Men fought against the WW/Others with the Children driven deep into their caves because they couldn't resist them either. Only until the FM and the CotF banned together did they manage to fight them off. Just because the Children and the FM had already signed a pact does not mean they were pally with each other, it just means they stopped killing each other. I think what we see here, in Martin's order of events, is the making of the first human greenseer. The last hero ended up in a weirwood somewhere. Maybe even Winterfell, if I had my choice of spots to wed him to a tree. No, sorry, what I meant was did Dany's marriage to Drogo, and his death actually take place before Ser Waymar and the direwolf pups?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 4, 2016 17:47:30 GMT
No, sorry, what I meant was did Dany's marriage to Drogo, and his death actually take place before Ser Waymar and the direwolf pups? Oh I hadn't considered that possibility. If it did that would make some sense as a trigger for the WW/Others. But then again, the Fire coming along after Ice has been mobilised makes sense too. I'll have to think on the idea of the Pyre as happening before Waymar gets murked.
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 17:58:35 GMT
Sorry if this has been discussed already, and really just a random thought, but what about Storm's end as another hinge.
I got this from the wiki: The castle is said to be protected by spells woven into its very walls that prevent magic from affecting it or passing through it.
Sounds an awful lot like the wall to me.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 4, 2016 18:08:44 GMT
Sorry if this has been discussed already, and really just a random thought, but what about Storm's end as another hinge. I got this from the wiki: The castle is said to be protected by spells woven into its very walls that prevent magic from affecting it or passing through it. Sounds an awful lot like the wall to me. Or a warded portal like Winterfell and Nightsgate (Black Gate).
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 18:20:18 GMT
Sorry, what is the warded portal at Winterfell? I also found the TWOW Arianne II sample chapter interesting in this respect (which I new realise you commented on in Heresy). Arianne had once heard her father and Maester Caleotte arguing with a septon about why the north and south sides of the Sea of Dorne were so different. The septon thought it was because of Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, who had stolen the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind and earned their eternal emnity. Prince Doran and the maester inclined more toward wind and water, and spoke of how the big storms that formed down in the Summer Sea would pick up moisture moving north until they slammed into Cape Wrath. For some strange reason the storms never seemed to strike at Dorne, she recalled her father saying. “I know your reason,” the septon had responded. “No Dornishmen ever stole away the daughter of two gods.” In the same way the wall seems to act as a barrier to the cold of winter moving south it could be that Storm's End is acting as a barrier to, erm, storms moving south.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 4, 2016 18:36:40 GMT
Sorry, what is the warded portal at Winterfell? I also found the TWOW Arianne II sample chapter interesting in this respect (which I new realise you commented on in Heresy). Arianne had once heard her father and Maester Caleotte arguing with a septon about why the north and south sides of the Sea of Dorne were so different. The septon thought it was because of Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, who had stolen the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind and earned their eternal emnity. Prince Doran and the maester inclined more toward wind and water, and spoke of how the big storms that formed down in the Summer Sea would pick up moisture moving north until they slammed into Cape Wrath. For some strange reason the storms never seemed to strike at Dorne, she recalled her father saying. “I know your reason,” the septon had responded. “No Dornishmen ever stole away the daughter of two gods.” In the same way the wall seems to act as a barrier to the cold of winter moving south it could be that Storm's End is acting as a barrier to, erm, storms moving south. Winterfell as a portal is just an unconfirmed theory, but I'm not alone in thinking there are tunnels leading from the Wall to Winterfell as hinted about in the Bael the Bard story. It's location is in the lower level of the crypts. It was warded, but at the end of Dance a winter storm seems to be centered around Winterfell. It may be that since there is no Stark in Winterfell, a ward has been removed, so the cold winds can now be vented through the tunnels and out the crypts of Winterfell. Storm's End also is said to be warded, thus why I was grouping these castles together. Funny you mention Arianne, because in her new chapter she also stumbles upon a hidden cave on her way to Storm's End...or was it closer to Griffin's Roost? The comment about Durran and Elenei was in response to how skinchanging became a imprinted in the genes of First Men.
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 18:44:44 GMT
Gotcha.
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Post by min on Aug 4, 2016 18:47:56 GMT
Sorry if this has been discussed already, and really just a random thought, but what about Storm's end as another hinge. I got this from the wiki: The castle is said to be protected by spells woven into its very walls that prevent magic from affecting it or passing through it. Sounds an awful lot like the wall to me. The basic idea is that the Wall contains hinges to doors. The wall itself is described as straight as a sword one one side and winding like a serpent on the other. The Black Gate contains the door that leads to the House of the Undying where Dany enters the building coiled like a snake; through a door that looks like a mouth that opens. This is associated with fire while the sword is associated with ice. Hence the Stark valyrian sword, Ice. I speculate that there is a door like the Black Gate in the Winterfell Crypts. The Black Gate only appears when Coldhands is near to collect someone for the old gods; while the Winterfell gate appears when direwolves are near to receive the spirits of recently dead Starks into 'the frozen hell reserved for Starks'. Both gates are associated with wierwood trees. So the Winterfell wierwood is associated with that gate or portal. I think there is a good chance that when we see it; it will have Bran's face. Winterfell might be so named because during the long night; it was the place where winter was defeated; where winter fell. Storm's End seems to have the same connotation for the fire side of the equation. It is described as a shield, it's fortifications (and magic) are so strong. I think we will see the end game with Euron play out there since he describes himself as the first storm and the last storm and that storyline involves fire, dragons and Dany. There is some speculation that there was another wall in Essos that was similar to the Wall in the north and it was a warding against fire. Storm's end could be associated with that Wall or not. There is not a lot of information about it. We still don't know where the fiery heart is located if it's the counterpart to the blue heart in the House of Undying or if it exists at all. Whether it's located in Westeros; perhaps on the god's eye which might be an inactive cauldera or crater lake. Braavos is another possibility since the house of black and white is there and it's a sea mount; an underwater volcano. The house of black and white or faceless men seem to be involved with the magic of the wall. The Black Gate is essentially a face mounted on a wall; Coldhands makes Sam swear an oath for the life he owes him. This is the death pays for life equation of the FM. The switchback stairs separating the wall between sword and snake like a lightening bolt or crooked stitching calls Arya to mind with her needle and crooked stitches. Before Dany enters the room and sees a splendor of wizards in the House of Undying; she passes ensorcled doors in the image of the wierwood and ebony doors of the House of Black and White. So they have a connection with the portals at the Wall and Winterfell. They also revere R'hllor and the god of many faces equally over the other gods. This is all guesswork of course. added: When Melisandre says they are standing on one of the hinges of the world; she may have been referring to the fire side of the wall. Their prayer to R'hllor seems similar to the oath of the Night's Watch and she has knowledge of the ancient enemy that hasn't been revealed yet. When she says the wall is as much her place as Jon's; this could mean that ice and fire joined forces to fight the ancient enemy the first time around.
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Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 19:53:59 GMT
Interesting stuff. I'm going to have to think on this some more.
I am really interested to see how the Faceless Men end up tying into everything. I'd never considered their being involved with the wall magic.
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