Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 9, 2016 1:15:00 GMT
In anticipation of
I figured it was time to resurrect this one!
My premise is that Jon is the child of an Other and Lyanna Stark. We already know that its not canon that Lyanna was at the ToJ, and RLJ is certainly not canon. There are tons of theories about his parentage, but this one feels like the right one to me.
"'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Lyanna says this when she learns she is betrothed to Robert and well before she even lays eyes on Rhaegar. It implies she has already known love, and lamented about a man's nature.
Lyanna is closely associated with the crypts. We know these crypts go much deeper than we've seen, and we know something deeper is calling to Jon. We also know in the story of Bael the Bard that the Stark maiden hid in those crypts and gave birth to a child there.
We further know that there is a legendary passage called Gorne's Way that may connect to the Winterfell crypts. Bran tells us the crypts are longer than Winterfell. The story of Gorne and Gendel tells us that they were attacked by Winterfell soldiers when they emerged.
Bran thinks of Gendel's children in the Cot3EC, which has an underground river and an endless black sea. Winterfell has a "bottomless" black pool under the heart tree. We have another confirmed "secret passage" in the books associated with water: The Black Gate. This gate, in my opinion, was used by the Night's King and his Pale Woman to thwart the magic wards that are in the Wall itself. There is no indication that the magic of the Wall extends to infinity above and below the Wall. The Black Gate required additional warding. Further, there is another entrance to the Cot3EC which we don]t know is warded or not.
Further, from AWOIAF
And
Further, we have the Kings of Winter in the crypts displaying a clear sign of denial of Guest Right. Bare swords across the lap, the same gesture Bran reiterates when Robb disses Tyrion who also clearly knows the gesture.
Ned himself also emulates this gesture when cleaning Ice, upon his knee, under the Heart Tree by the black pool.
This all adds up. The Kings of Winter are attempting to ward against someone or something entering Winterfell via the crypts and a forgotten secret passage, which Jon learns about from Ygritte. Bran reinforces the connection of this passage from the beyond the Wall to Winterfell itself. We have Lyanna, a parallel to the Stark Maiden from the Bael story who hid deep in the crypts where no one could find them. We have Lyanna expressing her thoughts about love and nature.
We have Arya's fond thoughts about the crypts, and Arya's being described as similar to Lyanna.
Finally, we have the pale blue roses which I'lll cover in another post.
Here is a collection of quotes, in no particular order, from Game of Thrones, Book One of ASOIAF, as textual evidence for Jon being the child of an Other and Lyanna Stark. Remember this is just from the first book.
4/5/17 Edit
Jon's father is The Great Other - aka Bran Stark, Timelord. Jon is a Jesus figure, and Lyanna was "visited" by TGO/God in the crypts of Winterfell.
dead Jon Snow "resurrected" to claim his throne as the Night's King
I figured it was time to resurrect this one!
My premise is that Jon is the child of an Other and Lyanna Stark. We already know that its not canon that Lyanna was at the ToJ, and RLJ is certainly not canon. There are tons of theories about his parentage, but this one feels like the right one to me.
"'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Lyanna says this when she learns she is betrothed to Robert and well before she even lays eyes on Rhaegar. It implies she has already known love, and lamented about a man's nature.
Lyanna is closely associated with the crypts. We know these crypts go much deeper than we've seen, and we know something deeper is calling to Jon. We also know in the story of Bael the Bard that the Stark maiden hid in those crypts and gave birth to a child there.
We further know that there is a legendary passage called Gorne's Way that may connect to the Winterfell crypts. Bran tells us the crypts are longer than Winterfell. The story of Gorne and Gendel tells us that they were attacked by Winterfell soldiers when they emerged.
Bran thinks of Gendel's children in the Cot3EC, which has an underground river and an endless black sea. Winterfell has a "bottomless" black pool under the heart tree. We have another confirmed "secret passage" in the books associated with water: The Black Gate. This gate, in my opinion, was used by the Night's King and his Pale Woman to thwart the magic wards that are in the Wall itself. There is no indication that the magic of the Wall extends to infinity above and below the Wall. The Black Gate required additional warding. Further, there is another entrance to the Cot3EC which we don]t know is warded or not.
Further, from AWOIAF
It has long been held that they did this for protection from predators such as direwolves or shadowcats, which their simple stone weapons—and even their vaunted greenseers—were not proof against. But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs. It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk's History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall. But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye.
The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.
The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, whose songs are still sung beyond the Wall...but there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not. The wildlings say he did and credit many songs to his name, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him. Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliations he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story, deflowering a Stark maid and getting her with child) or because he never existed, we cannot truly say.
The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, whose songs are still sung beyond the Wall...but there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not. The wildlings say he did and credit many songs to his name, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him. Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliations he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story, deflowering a Stark maid and getting her with child) or because he never existed, we cannot truly say.
Further, we have the Kings of Winter in the crypts displaying a clear sign of denial of Guest Right. Bare swords across the lap, the same gesture Bran reiterates when Robb disses Tyrion who also clearly knows the gesture.
Ned himself also emulates this gesture when cleaning Ice, upon his knee, under the Heart Tree by the black pool.
This all adds up. The Kings of Winter are attempting to ward against someone or something entering Winterfell via the crypts and a forgotten secret passage, which Jon learns about from Ygritte. Bran reinforces the connection of this passage from the beyond the Wall to Winterfell itself. We have Lyanna, a parallel to the Stark Maiden from the Bael story who hid deep in the crypts where no one could find them. We have Lyanna expressing her thoughts about love and nature.
We have Arya's fond thoughts about the crypts, and Arya's being described as similar to Lyanna.
Finally, we have the pale blue roses which I'lll cover in another post.
Here is a collection of quotes, in no particular order, from Game of Thrones, Book One of ASOIAF, as textual evidence for Jon being the child of an Other and Lyanna Stark. Remember this is just from the first book.
Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. (Prologue)
Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. (Ned)
The Others made no sound. (Prologue) parallel to Ghost
And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children. (Bran)
Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.
"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.
"The Others take his eyes," he swore (Bran)
Half-buried in bloodstained snow, a huge dark shape slumped in death. Ice had formed in its shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman's perfume. ;(blood and roses, anyone?)
"I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.
"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales¦ maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came." Born with the dead. Even worse luck."
...the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.
A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."
That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them.
They watched him dismount where the direwolf lay dead in the snow, watched him kneel. A moment later he was riding back to them, smiling.
"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.
"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind. (Bran)
"You're Ned Stark's bastard, aren't you?"
Jon felt a coldness pass right through him.
Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers." (Jon)
The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. (Catelyn)
"Kings are a rare sight in the north."
Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!" The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.
"Late summer snows are common enough," Ned said. "I hope they did not trouble you. They are usually mild."
"The Others take your mild snows," Robert swore.
She was to have been his bride. "The Others take my wife," Robert muttered sourly
Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.
Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost."
The frosty morning air felt good on his face. (Jon)
Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm. (Jon)
I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream. (Jon)
There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her? (Jon)
"Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them."
My uncle's men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he'd pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here . . .
Jafer's right wrist ended in the ruin of torn flesh and splintered bone left by Ghost's jaws. His right hand was floating in a jar of vinegar back in Maester Aemon's tower. His left hand, still at the end of his arm, was as black as his cloak. (jon)
Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. (Jon)
When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand.
they did not understand. It was not their fault, truly; they had not had to face Othor, they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes, had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers.
Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."
Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine."
"I dishonored myself, and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore.
Robb looked relieved. "Good." He smiled. "The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."
Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."
Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."
"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. (Jon)
Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. (Bran)
"You can call him Lord Snow," Pyp said as he came up to join them. "You don't want to know what his mother calls him."
At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind.
Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.(Ned)
In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face.
Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind.(Jon)
Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. (Ned)
The Others made no sound. (Prologue) parallel to Ghost
And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children. (Bran)
Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.
"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.
"The Others take his eyes," he swore (Bran)
Half-buried in bloodstained snow, a huge dark shape slumped in death. Ice had formed in its shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman's perfume. ;(blood and roses, anyone?)
"I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.
"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales¦ maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came." Born with the dead. Even worse luck."
...the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.
A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."
That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them.
They watched him dismount where the direwolf lay dead in the snow, watched him kneel. A moment later he was riding back to them, smiling.
"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.
"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind. (Bran)
"You're Ned Stark's bastard, aren't you?"
Jon felt a coldness pass right through him.
Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers." (Jon)
The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. (Catelyn)
"Kings are a rare sight in the north."
Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!" The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.
"Late summer snows are common enough," Ned said. "I hope they did not trouble you. They are usually mild."
"The Others take your mild snows," Robert swore.
She was to have been his bride. "The Others take my wife," Robert muttered sourly
Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.
Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost."
The frosty morning air felt good on his face. (Jon)
Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm. (Jon)
I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream. (Jon)
There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her? (Jon)
"Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them."
My uncle's men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he'd pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here . . .
Jafer's right wrist ended in the ruin of torn flesh and splintered bone left by Ghost's jaws. His right hand was floating in a jar of vinegar back in Maester Aemon's tower. His left hand, still at the end of his arm, was as black as his cloak. (jon)
Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. (Jon)
When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand.
they did not understand. It was not their fault, truly; they had not had to face Othor, they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes, had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers.
Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."
Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine."
"I dishonored myself, and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore.
Robb looked relieved. "Good." He smiled. "The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."
Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."
Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."
"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. (Jon)
Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. (Bran)
"You can call him Lord Snow," Pyp said as he came up to join them. "You don't want to know what his mother calls him."
At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind.
Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.(Ned)
In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face.
Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind.(Jon)
Jon's father is The Great Other - aka Bran Stark, Timelord. Jon is a Jesus figure, and Lyanna was "visited" by TGO/God in the crypts of Winterfell.