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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 13, 2016 18:13:45 GMT
Welcome Winterbowl! I love this theory because it explains so much, including the False Spring. It also ties together everything neatly into the whole story being the fallout of events leading up to Robert's Rebellion and after. Now we know the Others are coming back because of something Lyanna did, a character we've been hearing about from the beginning. See this is something I hadn't thought of before you mentioned it and now I see it, I can't unsee it. Wow, the False Spring. Of course winter would have to come back in order so sustain a half-human, half-Other child being born. Nice catch! But could you expand on Lyanna being the cause of the Others coming back. That's a wee bit fuzzy for me. I don't see the connection clearly. What, aside from getting pregnant with an Other's child does Lyanna do to trigger the Others coming back? There would've had to've been Others already active in order for Lyanna to fall pregnant by one, wouldn't there? So it's more like a side effect than a trigger.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 13, 2016 18:16:24 GMT
Also Black Crow is literally GRRM or paid by him. Explains why he doesn't write faster. BC's a force all his own. I've not posted on Heresy in ages, but I still read it on semi-regular basis.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 5:36:48 GMT
Apparently the scenes inside the Tower of Joy were shot with a skeleton crew, the absolute minimum people required to shoot the scene. If Lyanna was some kind of Other when she gave birth to Jon we will find out this season. I love this theory because it explains so much, including the False Spring. It also ties together everything neatly into the whole story being the fallout of events leading up to Robert's Rebellion and after. Now we know the Others are coming back because of something Lyanna did, a character we've been hearing about from the beginning. Bran's vision of the pregnant woman emerging from the black pool could easily be the first Lyanna. GRRM uses the term 'chink in the wall' in that Dany vision meaning a weakness in the wall. Did the lady in the vision find a cave in the black pool that led to the Lands of Always Winter? And was she there impregnated by an 'Other'? The mystery deepens. There are other profound mysteries that lead me to believe GRRM is pulling one over on all of us. Why did Rhaegar refer to Aegon as having The Song of Ice and Fire? And, this one still baffles me completely, what was the purpose of showing Drogo beyond the Wall with their child in the show version of the House of the Undying? It makes no fucking sense. I'm definitely anticipating this season heavily, I think it could be really shocking. Welcome to the party! I too really want this season to start, like, now!
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 30, 2016 2:21:37 GMT
Born with the dead. I was searching for outside sources of this term or phrase when I happened upon "firstborn of the dead." Firstborn of the dead is a description of Jesus from the New Testament. Could it be that Martin has taken something from this? In this useage, firstborn is used as the the heir, pretty much. Not the first to be born, ever. Others were raised from the dead centuries before and just months before Jesus. So, not the first to rise from the dead, but the first amongst the dead to rise. Looking at Jon and Ghost, I wonder if this is what George is aiming for/will be the outcome: That Jon will be the head of the household, so to speak. I know this is kinda out there, but...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 3:04:35 GMT
Born with the dead. I was searching for outside sources of this term or phrase when I happened upon "firstborn of the dead." Firstborn of the dead is a description of Jesus from the New Testament. Could it be that Martin has taken something from this? In this useage, firstborn is used as the the heir, pretty much. Not the first to be born, ever. Others were raised from the dead centuries before and just months before Jesus. So, not the first to rise from the dead, but the first amongst the dead to rise. Looking at Jon and Ghost, I wonder if this is what George is aiming for/will be the outcome: That Jon will be the head of the household, so to speak. I know this is kinda out there, but...
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Post by winterbowl on May 2, 2016 3:25:20 GMT
Jesus Christ I think it's really happening guys.
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Post by Melifeather on May 2, 2016 4:15:53 GMT
As a man of the Nights Watch, Jon was a Drowned Man, and a man drowned in sacrifice to the Drowned God must be resuscitated with the breath of life.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 2, 2016 19:39:46 GMT
Born with the dead. I was searching for outside sources of this term or phrase when I happened upon "firstborn of the dead." Firstborn of the dead is a description of Jesus from the New Testament. Could it be that Martin has taken something from this? In this useage, firstborn is used as the the heir, pretty much. Not the first to be born, ever. Others were raised from the dead centuries before and just months before Jesus. So, not the first to rise from the dead, but the first amongst the dead to rise. Looking at Jon and Ghost, I wonder if this is what George is aiming for/will be the outcome: That Jon will be the head of the household, so to speak. I know this is kinda out there, but... well isn't this glorious! I found and And I don't remember hearing that phrase even though I went to catholic/parochial/jesuit schools. Could be Martin is snagging some more Christian imagery/dogma. We know he was also a parochial school boy. What's interesting too is the "bad luck" aspect, because I was think about all the story inversions/parallels ( Melifeather) and it reminded me of arguments I used to have over on W about there absolutely being a baby swap back around the time all those babies were born. Needless to say, not many people like the idea of a babyswap back then, even with the story of the Pisswater Prince. Anyway, if we need to invert a baby swap story, we have Aemon Battleborn and Monster swapped in modern day. One has a Targ name and "king's blood." The other is the result of a breeding practice that outsiders find repulsive. So whether we're talking about baby Aegon VI, or Faegon, or whichever "Targ/king's blood" baby fits, we still need a Monster. The Monster baby could be the result of incest... or worse. Just kicking the tires on that one.
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Post by Melifeather on May 2, 2016 20:02:40 GMT
While the Queenmaker inversion chapter hints that Arthur Dayne caused Lyanna's death, there's something poetic about Robert Baratheon being Jon's father, because he was a Storm Lord. Going back to the very beginning of time in Westeros we have Elenei, daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind as being the wife of the first Storm Lord. Jon is a drowned man of the sea and was resuscitated by the wind.
Regarding the baby swap...something in my Queenmaker essay has been nagging at me and it happens after Lyanna and Ashara appear to swap places in the text. GRRM's symbolism seems to apply to Ashara. He writes:
This is a very weird and cryptic sentence. First lets insert the suspected inverted characters:
1) Myrcella was Lyanna, but she swapped places with Ashara. 2) Spotted Sylva symbolically is Melara the dead girl and Wenda the White Fawn, who also has spots, while Lyanna had spots from the measels...all of these spotted women are young girls whose lives are being threatened. 3) Garin is Jaime Lannister 4) Drey is Lem Lemoncloak, the new identity of Arthur Dayne
What does "spitting olive stones" sound like to you? IMO they represent fertilizing a new life, and Jaime, a man who incestuously fathered three children with his sister is "spitting" at or rather pointing accusingly at Arthur for getting his own sister, Ashara pregnant...
There is your possible incest, and there is your possible baby swap.
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Post by winterbowl on May 3, 2016 4:44:39 GMT
It's weird that we have not heard any casting news about Lyanna. CGI character anyone?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 3, 2016 14:46:19 GMT
Born with the dead. I was searching for outside sources of this term or phrase when I happened upon "firstborn of the dead." Firstborn of the dead is a description of Jesus from the New Testament. Could it be that Martin has taken something from this? In this useage, firstborn is used as the the heir, pretty much. Not the first to be born, ever. Others were raised from the dead centuries before and just months before Jesus. So, not the first to rise from the dead, but the first amongst the dead to rise. Looking at Jon and Ghost, I wonder if this is what George is aiming for/will be the outcome: That Jon will be the head of the household, so to speak. I know this is kinda out there, but... well isn't this glorious! I found and And I don't remember hearing that phrase even though I went to catholic/parochial/jesuit schools. Could be Martin is snagging some more Christian imagery/dogma. We know he was also a parochial school boy. What's interesting too is the "bad luck" aspect, because I was think about all the story inversions/parallels ( Melifeather ) and it reminded me of arguments I used to have over on W about there absolutely being a baby swap back around the time all those babies were born. Needless to say, not many people like the idea of a babyswap back then, even with the story of the Pisswater Prince. Anyway, if we need to invert a baby swap story, we have Aemon Battleborn and Monster swapped in modern day. One has a Targ name and "king's blood." The other is the result of a breeding practice that outsiders find repulsive. So whether we're talking about baby Aegon VI, or Faegon, or whichever "Targ/king's blood" baby fits, we still need a Monster. The Monster baby could be the result of incest... or worse. Just kicking the tires on that one. The Jesus imagery is pretty strong with Jon. A while back there was a thread on it in the Westeros forum (a long while back). The only part of it I really remember is equating Aliser Thorne with Jesus' crown of thorns.
The death and rebirth also ties in really well with all of the Green Man imagery surrounding Jon.
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Post by min on May 3, 2016 14:53:34 GMT
I'm wondering what Jon will be like, how his animus will have changed, what has been lost. What purpose he will take and whether or not that is his choice.
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Post by Melifeather on May 4, 2016 11:53:51 GMT
If the inverted wheel of time theory proves true, we may see an inversion of two "sisters" whose baby's are swapped after one dies in labor. The "royal" infant is transported to a Lord's castle, and the "monster" stays at the Wall. Lastly, a girl riding hard on a dying horse towards the Wall and it's "Lord Commander". The opposite of this is the birthing mother lives, and the girl on the horse dies after riding south towards a Lord Commander.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 4, 2016 15:32:56 GMT
It's weird that we have not heard any casting news about Lyanna. CGI character anyone? A young Lyanna does appear in the second episode, when Bran goes back to Winterfell with BR and sees his father, uncles and Hodor as children. Lyanna comes riding in on a white horse, showing off her riding skills.
But let's see if new week's ToJ scene includes her as a young adult.
The showrunners have kept her casting very hush-hush.
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Post by min on May 5, 2016 0:41:48 GMT
I'm going to say yes to GRRM using this stuff; given that he uses the term born with the dead in GoT. firstborn sons came across this bit in GoT Bran I: They find the direwolf pups: His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.
"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales ... maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."
"Born with the dead," another man put it. "Worse luck."
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