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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 27, 2016 11:50:55 GMT
Jorah and Jeor Mormont are a strange couple of dudes. and the absence of the family tree on wikis is a red flag for me. I think bear Island and its proximity to the Shadow tower are huge keys to the Rhaegar secret plot. we have Torrmund who had sex with a she bear. and Mance Rayder staying at the shadow tower as well as Qhorin halfhand. none of those three men are using their true name. Its quite unusual that some of the men from shadow tower use nicknames halfhand Stonesnake. from what ive concluded mance=Rhaegar, Torrmund=Arthur Dayne,--or Mouth (german) of the Torr (river that Starfall sits at the mouth of)-- Qhorin halfhand= Gerold Hightower who had the same hand qhorin is missing fingers shot with the arrow Septa Unella=Maege Mormont High Sparrow= Howland ReedSepta lemore= Ashara Dayne You have no idea how much I love all this I'm a huge fan of Mance=Rhaegar and the HS=HR. And the other characters slot in very neatly. I'll go one further and say Septa Moelle is the Miller's Wife. Ramsay's mother. Val and Dalla (Valhalla) must have a deep association with death/dead men, I agree. I need to get my thoughts together on this. The name Mor-mont. Mor being an obvious reference to death/mortality and -mont having a few meanings. Hill/mount is one, the other is a waystation for travellers. House Mormont - a waystation for "dead" travellers? Interesting. Hmm. And hell yes about the sword. What was so wrong with the hilt that Jeor needs to replace it with something so distinctive specifically for Jon? Well who could these men (jeor and Jorah) be? and why is poor jorah allowed to marry Lynese HightowER? Well if rhaegar had a secret pact with the hightowers, whents, starks, daynes and other northmen and Maester Aemon at the wall. then someone privy to this pact would have a connection to the hightowers and the secrets they all shared. The only missing men I can think of are RICKARD Stark and Brandon Stark. The ages lineup. the apperance of RICKARD and JEOR are very similar in GRRM commisioned work. The Old WOlf and the OLd BEar. and as we dont have persepectives POV characters on these deaths and because characters in our story can lie.. it could be possible. It gives the dynamic of Jeor and Jon a new level Is it crackpot yes. But it would explain the lack of history for the Mormont men I have no doubt there is something suspicious with Jeor and Jorah, maybe even to the point of memory tampering. But we do have pre-RR evidence of Jeor and Jorah interacting with the larger world, so I stop short with calling them Rickard and Brandon. But what I am considering, along with the Wall being a hinge ( min has a great thread here on this) and history repeating itself constantly ( Melifeather ) is that there is an alternate reality beyond the wall. And Dany mighy be in another one. Gathering my thoughts. Great post!
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 27, 2016 12:10:13 GMT
I'm beginning to wonder if there's an even bigger picture than the events prior to the Rebellion myself. I'm currently trying to decipher The Reaver and Cat of the Canals, and it's always hard to get started. It's like putting a puzzle together and you're trying to find some edge pieces to put together. The reason why I bring these two chapters up is that I think they are going back earlier than the Rebellion. It may be that The Reaver is meant to mirror Aerys II when he was a young knight fighting during the Ninepenny Kings, and Arya's Cat of the Canals chapter has her describing four courtesans, one of them the Poetess is an avid Reader. The "Reader" is a recurring Targaryen descendant. Rhaegar was a reader, and Shiera Seastar is a known reader:
The first episode of GOT this year has caused a bit of discussion about Melisandre and who she is, even speculating that she's Shiera.
If Mance is Rhaegar, when did he leave to go to the Wall and who was part of his plans? The Mormonts seem to be close to Ned, other than Jorah, as evidenced by one of Maege Mormont's daughters being named Lyanna.
What I'm trying to say in a round about way is that it is possible that all these characters are people hiding in plain site, but would there be so many?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 27, 2016 12:20:01 GMT
he "Reader" is a recurring Targaryen descendant. Rhaegar was a reader, and Shiera Seastar is a known reader: A reader lives a thousand lives after all The Mormonts seem to be close to Ned, other than Jorah, as evidenced by one of Maege Mormont's daughters being named Lyanna. Agreed. What could have made Ned so angry?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 27, 2016 13:22:55 GMT
mance=Rhaegar, Torrmund=Arthur Dayne,--or Mouth (german) of the Torr (river that Starfall sits at the mouth of)-- Qhorin halfhand= Gerold Hightower who had the same hand qhorin is missing fingers shot with the arrow I'd like to suggest this as a different topic in the main book section, because this is more than a crackpot. Since we're all focused on rubies now because of the show , I'll throw this bit of text in here to show you all why.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 27, 2016 15:37:55 GMT
What could have made Ned so angry? Perhaps he's enraged with Jorah for having neglected his duties to Ned's daughter and spent all his money on keeping Lynesse in comforts, while Dany (and Viserys) had to fend for herself. In other words, he pilfered money that should've been getting to Dany, causing the kids to get turned out of the house with the red door. When they get turned out, Jorah's forced to ship them to Essos, rather than keep them safely hidden within Westeros. For this to make any kind of sense though, I'm guessing that Jorah never saw them and was probably not aware there were two children. Or else his alarm bells should've been going off when he meets them in Illyrio's manse. The 'poachers' were whatever family they were living with, and the selling them to slavers is more like 'bought them passage' on a ship well versed at getting around without detection. ETA To clarify the above, I think Jorah was told that Dany was just a bastard daughter of Ned's that Catelyn would not allow in Winterfell, since they already had one bastard living there.
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Post by min on Apr 27, 2016 20:05:00 GMT
Ok, I think I'm getting my head around this a little bit. When I think of Jorah, I think of the prophecy in the House of the Undying. 1) three fire must you light: one for life and one for death and one to love. Dany lit these fires at Drogo's funeral pyre. Life for the dragons; death for Mirri Maaz Duur and the one to love, Drogo. (the present) 2) three mounts must you ride: one to bed, one to dread and one to love. I don't have a clue at this point. (the future) 3) three treasons will you know: once for blood, once for gold and once for love. I suspect this last is related to Jorah since she already calls him a traitor. Did the blood and gold treasons occur on Bear Island and yet unknown to Dany? (the past) legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Corruption+of+Blood
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Post by Asongneedsinstruments on Apr 27, 2016 20:35:26 GMT
"Val and Dalla (Valhalla) must have a deep association with death/dead men, I agree. I need to get my thoughts together on this."
wow, interesting observation. Thats spot on
"The name Mor-mont. Mor being an obvious reference to death/mortality and -mont having a few meanings. Hill/mount is one, the other is a waystation for travellers. House Mormont - a waystation for "dead" travellers? Interesting. Hmm."
Great word association.
Its similar to the word association used to confirm Torrmund as Arthur Dayne in my theory.
great interpretation!
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Post by Asongneedsinstruments on Apr 27, 2016 20:47:26 GMT
The first episode of GOT this year has caused a bit of discussion about Melisandre and who she is, even speculating that she's Shiera. Just to address this point, I agree that Melisandre is either Shiera or the Daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven. What she sees in her flames are visions from her father she never met? or her ex lover she doesnt recognize. The fact she was a slave as a child makes me think she would be the child of this union. Shiera and her mother were much older than they appeared as we recall, and probably bathed in Blood... and may have inhabited Harrenhal at one point... the lineage of houses gifted or earning Harrenhal is interesting. as Aegon IV (shieras father) gave harrenhal to one of his mistresses... not Shierra's Lysene mother but maybe she acquired it? also, The introduction of Shierras mother, whose name escapes me currently, is similar to the introduction of Larra Rograe to young king Viserys. Might this be another Hightower involvement? coming from tryros/Lys again where The Rogare's and Hightowers have had connections before?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 27, 2016 20:51:17 GMT
and Moelle - Moeller - Moller (Germanic) = Miller
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Post by Asongneedsinstruments on Apr 27, 2016 20:56:51 GMT
If Mance is Rhaegar, when did he leave to go to the Wall and who was part of his plans? The Mormonts seem to be close to Ned, other than Jorah, as evidenced by one of Maege Mormont's daughters being named Lyanna. What I'm trying to say in a round about way is that it is possible that all these characters are people hiding in plain site, but would there be so many? Perhaps he's enraged with Jorah for having neglected his duties to Ned's daughter and spent all his money on keeping Lynesse in comforts, while Dany (and Viserys) had to fend for herself. In other words, he pilfered money that should've been getting to Dany, causing the kids to get turned out of the house with the red door. When they get turned out, Jorah's forced to ship them to Essos, rather than keep them safely hidden within Westeros. For this to make any kind of sense though, I'm guessing that Jorah never saw them and was probably not aware there were two children. Or else his alarm bells should've been going off when he meets them in Illyrio's manse. The 'poachers' were whatever family they were living with, and the selling them to slavers is more like 'bought them passage' on a ship well versed at getting around without detection. ETA To clarify the above, I think Jorah was told that Dany was just a bastard daughter of Ned's that Catelyn would not allow in Winterfell, since they already had one bastard living there. I see your interpretation as highly plausible. and I offer another hypothesis. what if their were no slaves sold ? and this is just another one of NEd's lies that he has to make for the cause. It allows this Jorah character to leave and then to find his way to Danaerys as a protector. Maybe Ned used this story as a cover to get him away to protect Danaerys for him. Or 2ndly if Jorah is Brandon Ned may have other reasons to be mad at him. But it also would be easy for NEd to Trust Brandon to go off and protect this child of whomevers she is ( Brandon, Ned, Ashara, rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia) Keep in Mind GOT took liberties with the apperance of Jorah's hair color. The age seems about right for a Brandon though. The darker Brown hair seen here on this GRRM aproved work from the Wiki.. Shows a closer resemblence to starks than that of Ian and his reddish, brown, blonde
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Post by Asongneedsinstruments on Apr 27, 2016 21:07:39 GMT
these are the approved images on AWOIAF which I assume the probably ran by GRRM. The Old Bear and the Old wolf?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 28, 2016 0:47:07 GMT
The Old Bear and the Old wolf? I'm enjoying thinking in this direction, but I need to let it sink in. How do you resolve present-day actions? Are memories being tricked? Or just clever writing? I haven't had a chance to reread Jorah while thinking his actions could suggest he's.. not Jorah. A most excellent crackpot!
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Post by Asongneedsinstruments on Apr 28, 2016 4:22:38 GMT
How do you resolve present-day actions? Are memories being tricked? Or just clever writing? Havent delved as deep into this theory as I have a few of my others Nor have I re read more than excerpts on my digital copies for small relevant sections. The biggest hold up is that Jaime says he watched Rickard Burn and Brandon Choke to death. We have also been told that Rhaegar was killed at the Trident several times. This theory can only work if Rhaegar meets up with Lyanna early on, whether it be with the smiling knights gang (theory from Marvelous section Ringleader i think) or wheter it be at the harrenhal tourney where Rhaegar chased Lyanna down as the KOTLT. and at this point a corespondece through lyanna to the starks was made, and a plan to save the future of the world was set. a Plan that would Rekindle the Pact of Ice and Fire. And somehow people were glamoured? or i dont know.... this is why this is my least credible point to the Rhaegar Pact and the situation at TOJ leading to Rhaegar's decoy at the trident and the false deaths of the Northmen and kingsguard at the TOJ. Many mens birth identities died there but men with different covert identities left. BUt i have little textual evidence aside what I have presented making this not a theory of mine but a crackpot theory. The mention of Norvos... and it having specifically Bears and Wolves I found slightly interesting too.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 14, 2016 23:09:24 GMT
The Mormont and the Maiden Fair
A bear there was, a bear, a bear! all black and brown, and covered with hair. The bear! The bear! Oh come they said, oh come to the fair! The fair? Said he, but I'm a bear! All black and brown, and covered with hair! And down the road from here to there. From here! To there! Three boys, a goat and a dancing bear! They danced and spun, all the way to the fair! The fair! The fair! Oh, sweet she was, and pure and fair! The maid with honey in her hair! Her hair! Her hair! The maid with honey in her hair! The bear smelled the scent on the summer air. The bear! The bear! All black and brown and covered with hair! He smelled the scent on the summer air! He sniffed and roared and smelled it there! Honey on the summer air! Oh, I'm a maid, and I'm pure and fair! I'll never dance with a hairy bear! A bear! A bear! I'll never dance with a hairy bear! The bear, the bear! Lifted her high into the air! The bear! The bear! I called for a knight, but you're a bear! A bear, a bear! All black and brown and covered with hair She kicked and wailed, the maid so fair, But he licked the honey from her hair. Her hair! Her hair! He licked the honey from her hair! Then she sighed and squealed and kicked the air! My bear! She sang. My bear so fair! And off they went, from here to there, The bear, the bear, and the maiden fair.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 15, 2016 17:14:28 GMT
Haha, it's all right there in the song! And also
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