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Post by min on May 4, 2016 2:10:35 GMT
I haven't gotten the chance to rewatch the episode, but doesn't Mel say something like she doesn't know if it's a good idea to bring Jon back because they aren't the same upon rebirth? That was the gist of what I understood her telling Davos, but I've already forgot how she put it. This is the trouble with watching the show with company, too many of us commenting while watching. Ok so I watched it again, this time solo, and what Mel, said that I misinterpreted, is the part where she says to Davos, 'If you want to help him, leave him be.' And then she says she'd met a person brought back, 'the priest shouldn't have that kind of power.' but she mumbles and I heard 'the priest shouldn't have done that.' So to my idea of Mel not wanting to bring Jon back for existential reasons. Thinking about it a bit more; I think it is Leaf or perhaps Bloodraven who warns Bran about bringing back the dead. She goes so far as to tell him it's not possible. But she is talking about meddling in events of the past and that's an open question. Of course, it suggests that this is a possibility and we know that bringing back the dead in the present is more than possible. I wonder if there wasn't also a bit of a warning about bringing back someone like Jon or Coldhands. If this is something the children have done in the past with unexpected consequences. I know this has been an ongoing conversation. But something else came to mind about Coldhands. Sam makes the observation that he is afraid of the fire. Why would an dead person be afraid of fire? It brings to mind the comment someone made that CH is really occupied by a child of the forest not unlike the crows and ravens. They would have memories of the Andals torching weirwood forests perhaps with greenseers intact. So perhaps CH is occupied by someone who has pulled the original owners shadow overtop the body like a mask with the memories in the bones intact. Creating the "seeming" that Mel describes. Seaming, another form of stitching.
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Post by min on May 4, 2016 2:14:18 GMT
BTW, Tyrion needs to have a better dialogue written for him. He went from witty and snide, to infantile and bland. Varys on the other hand, gave a superb performance and no one noticed. That actor is brilliant. And of course I have no clue on his name. I'm starting to cringe with all the glib dialogue. I'm not looking forward to the appearance to the new red women if this is the way it's going down.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 4, 2016 3:51:37 GMT
Thinking about it a bit more; I think it is Leaf or perhaps Bloodraven who warns Bran about bringing back the dead. She goes so far as to tell him it's not possible. Yes! Now I think about it, Mel's line was very similar to what Leaf tells Bran. Leaf tells Bran not to call the dead back, that they are better left alone. I wonder if there wasn't also a bit of a warning about bringing back someone like Jon or Coldhands. If this is something the children have done in the past with unexpected consequences. I know this has been an ongoing conversation. I would think so. There seems to be an element of having already done it and seen or experienced what happens when the dead are called back. Having much longer lives than men, the Children would probably remember more than man as well. Plus, they live among the Greenseers, so the past to them is much closer. They probably still have stories or legends about the Long Night that man has forgotten or twisted into fairy tales the way Old Nan tells them. Hmm I wonder now if Coldhands doesn't stretch that far back? Nah, he'd be a walking skeleton. Here's another thought about this -- Leaf says 'they killed him long ago', but the important bit is this -- has he been hanging about since he died or was he reborn more recently. It tells us nothing about when or why he's walking about playing Charon now. See what I mean? But something else came to mind about Coldhands. Sam makes the observation that he is afraid of the fire. Why would an dead person be afraid of fire? It brings to mind the comment someone made that CH is really occupied by a child of the forest not unlike the crows and ravens. They would have memories of the Andals torching weirwood forests perhaps with greenseers intact. So perhaps CH is occupied by someone who has pulled the original owners shadow overtop the body like a mask with the memories in the bones intact. Well, the practical side of me says it's because the human body is quite flammable. Cremation, the way the wildlings do it, is based on the body consuming itself. The pyre is kind of a starter fire for a large BBQ, if you know what I mean. Once the pyre reaches a certain temperature, the rest is done by the body itself, not the wood. However, I like the idea of CH being an available vessel for a Child to use. And just like trees and the greenseers in them (immobilised Ents anyone?) they would fear fire. Even without the experience of the Andals. Creating the "seeming" that Mel describes. Seaming, another form of stitching. Love it!
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 4, 2016 3:55:38 GMT
BTW, Tyrion needs to have a better dialogue written for him. Agree. Enough with the penis (or lack there of) jokes. Honestly, are we back in high school? The Dothraki last week were no better either with the silver blonde hair talk, that we had to fecking read as well!
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 4, 2016 18:32:52 GMT
Well I finally got around to watching it, and found it to be quite a mixed bag. Most of the moments I liked had to do with someone getting bashed into a wall.
The thing that irritated me the most was Davos' motivations. If it was Stannis laying dead at Davos' feet, then I could understand his desire to put aside his distaste for Melisandre to try and convince her to raise Stannis. I don't get why he cares so much about bringing Jon back from the dead. There hasn't been enough relationship between the two for that moment to seem plausible. Perhaps they should have kept Sam at Castle Black. It's also a bit disconcerting for Davos to go from horrified over what Melisandre gave birth to, and then to give her a pep talk to do more black magic later on. The whole bit felt really forced.
ETA: I almost forgot about the Sansa and Theon scene. That also rang a bit hollow. Despite whatever Theon did to help Sansa out of Ramsay's clutches, I still don't see her giving him a big, all is forgiven hug at the end. I mean he is responsible for the killing of most of the people that she grew up with, and the betrayal of her brother, which went a long ways towards the Starks losing the war. Perhaps her Stockholm syndrome has grown so great, that she becomes emotionally attached to anyone who isn't torturing her at the moment.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 4, 2016 18:40:27 GMT
The thing that irritated me the most was Davos' motivations. If it was Stannis laying dead at Davos' feet, then I could understand his desire to put aside his distaste for Melisandre to try and convince her to raise Stannis. I don't get why he cares so much about bringing Jon back from the dead. There hasn't been enough relationship between the two for that moment to seem plausible. Perhaps they should have kept Sam at Castle Black. It's also a bit disconcerting for Davos to go from horrified over what Melisandre gave birth to, and then to give her a pep talk to do more black magic later on. The whole bit felt really forced. I might be misremembering but was there not a scene last season with Davos and Jon talking alone? I thought there was a quasi relationship built between them. What I found a bit hard to swallow was how easily Davos forgave Melisandre for the disaster she caused outside of Winterfell. I'm wondering if he knows she burnt Shireen, because I can hardly see Davos forgiving her for killing the girl he loved as his own daughter. The child he made toys for and taught him to read.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 4, 2016 18:46:38 GMT
The thing that irritated me the most was Davos' motivations. If it was Stannis laying dead at Davos' feet, then I could understand his desire to put aside his distaste for Melisandre to try and convince her to raise Stannis. I don't get why he cares so much about bringing Jon back from the dead. There hasn't been enough relationship between the two for that moment to seem plausible. Perhaps they should have kept Sam at Castle Black. It's also a bit disconcerting for Davos to go from horrified over what Melisandre gave birth to, and then to give her a pep talk to do more black magic later on. The whole bit felt really forced. I might be misremembering but was there not a scene last season with Davos and Jon talking alone? I thought there was a quasi relationship built between them. What I found a bit hard to swallow was how easily Davos forgave Melisandre for the disaster she caused outside of Winterfell. I'm wondering if he knows she burnt Shireen, because I can hardly see Davos forgiving her for killing the girl he loved as his own daughter. The child he made toys for and taught him to read. It would have made a lot more sense for the show to have kept Sam at Castle Black. He at least has the necessary attachment to Jon, and he doesn't have Davos' baggage with Melisandre. I could definitely see Sam giving Melisandre the pep talk, much like he psychologically manipulated Cotter and Mallister into backing Jon.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 4, 2016 19:04:57 GMT
I might be misremembering but was there not a scene last season with Davos and Jon talking alone? I thought there was a quasi relationship built between them. What I found a bit hard to swallow was how easily Davos forgave Melisandre for the disaster she caused outside of Winterfell. I'm wondering if he knows she burnt Shireen, because I can hardly see Davos forgiving her for killing the girl he loved as his own daughter. The child he made toys for and taught him to read. It would have made a lot more sense for the show to have kept Sam at Castle Black. He at least has the necessary attachment to Jon, and he doesn't have Davos' baggage with Melisandre. I could definitely see Sam giving Melisandre the pep talk, much like he psychologically manipulated Cotter and Mallister into backing Jon. Instead, they want Sam at Horn Hill - and in Oldtown? - as soon as possible, bypassing the entire journey to Braavos. I can't wait to see where they're going with the Tarlys. Actually now that I think about it, George wanted Sam far, far away from the Wall too. Great points, Davos didn't even ask Mel what happened to Stannis and Shireen. And when he left Stannis, he was obviously suspicious and concerned for Shireen's safety.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 4, 2016 19:06:30 GMT
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 5, 2016 1:36:16 GMT
The thing that irritated me the most was Davos' motivations. If it was Stannis laying dead at Davos' feet, then I could understand his desire to put aside his distaste for Melisandre to try and convince her to raise Stannis. I don't get why he cares so much about bringing Jon back from the dead. There hasn't been enough relationship between the two for that moment to seem plausible Ah. I have only seen about half of season five so I thought I missed out on something between Davos and Jon and the Watch. So Davos actions are somewhat out of the blue. Maybe it's a Harry-Potter-type-thing. Just change it up when you feel it's neccesary for your storytelling.
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Post by min on May 5, 2016 1:56:56 GMT
They were out of the blue but so was the Tyrion Dragon Whisperer scene. That really irritated me.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 5, 2016 2:25:33 GMT
I'm still waiting for Tyrion to ride one of the dragons. Targ whispering or not.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 5, 2016 15:18:53 GMT
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Post by Melifeather on May 5, 2016 15:59:24 GMT
Tyrion talks about wanting to ride a dragon when he was young, min, so wouldn't that be canon?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 5, 2016 17:07:25 GMT
Ah. I have only seen about half of season five so I thought I missed out on something between Davos and Jon and the Watch. So Davos actions are somewhat out of the blue. Maybe it's a Harry-Potter-type-thing. Just change it up when you feel it's neccesary for your storytelling. Oh good you're watching season 5. Can you keep an eye out for that scene I was talking about to FFR please? I'm sure there's a scene where Davos and Jon talk about Stannis and life. Oh yeah, I just remembered, there's also a scene where Stannis and Selyse are watching Jon and there's tone of grudging admiration towards Jon. I think, this is supposed to set up why Jon is important and to hint that Davos would know all Stannis and Selyse are talking about too. But I still don't hold with Davos forgiving Melisandre and even having sympathy for her plight, if he is aware that she burned Shireen. No effing way he's that understanding and caring of the woman who killed his little girl/teacher.
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