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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 12, 2016 21:00:42 GMT
Just spitballing a bit here...
Preston Jacobs has a theory that Qyburn is in league with Dorne. If true, and if Qyburn is in fact Maester Walys, then perhaps Maester Walys had a connection with the then Lord Commander of the Wall, Lord Commander, Qorgyle. Qorgyle was the House that fostered Oberyn Martell.
I've often wondered if perhaps Coldhands, with his black eyes, might be former Lord Commander, Qorgyle, since it seems many of the Salty dornishmen have those telltale black eyes.
There is also a separate theory that Mance Rayder is the bastard son of Lord Commander Qorgyle, which is why Qorgyle took Mance with him on his visit to Winterfell.
Whaaaa? Who is Preston Jacobs? Is there a link? "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters only go by one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from...but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. - Lady BarbreyPreston Jacobs is a youtube blogger, who has a number of ASOIAF theories. I buy into some more than others. Anyway, he's real big on the Dornish conspiracy, and believes that the Brave Companions were the sellsword company that Oberyn founded during is time in Essos. He also thinks that Marwyn, Qyburn and Oberyn might be in league together as well. He thinks that the Brave Companions are wreaking havoc to help stir the populace up against the Lannisters, and meting out justice against the Lannisters. The Brave companions cut off Jaime's sword arm, they feed Lorch to a bear, and then their founder, Oberyn (in Preston's theory) poisons Gregor (and perhaps Tywin if you believe that theory).
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 12, 2016 23:31:45 GMT
I've often wondered if perhaps Coldhands, with his black eyes, might be former Lord Commander, Qorgyle, since it seems many of the Salty dornishmen have those telltale black eyes Do you have any theory for the, "they killed him long ago" describing Coldhands if he is indeed Qorgyle? Well, the "they" part of that statement. It is interesting that Qorgyle was still around during the reign of the Dragons. I wonder how he found himself at the Wall. Side thought, the Dornish have been the bane and the brothers of the Targs.
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Post by min on May 13, 2016 1:04:59 GMT
Whaaaa? Who is Preston Jacobs? Is there a link? "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters only go by one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from...but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. - Lady BarbreyPreston Jacobs is a youtube blogger, who has a number of ASOIAF theories. I buy into some more than others. Anyway, he's real big on the Dornish conspiracy, and believes that the Brave Companions were the sellsword company that Oberyn founded during is time in Essos. He also thinks that Marwyn, Qyburn and Oberyn might be in league together as well. He thinks that the Brave Companions are wreaking havoc to help stir the populace up against the Lannisters, and meting out justice against the Lannisters. The Brave companions cut off Jaime's sword arm, they feed Lorch to a bear, and then their founder, Oberyn (in Preston's theory) poisons Gregor (and perhaps Tywin if you believe that theory). The Dorne Conspiracy is interesting although I don't think MMD was part of a plot to steal a dragon or dragon's egg. I do think her 'song' in the funeral pyre was an attempt to give herself immunity from the fire and that backfired. I think she serves as a benchmark or point of comparison. I am easily convinced that Marwyn, Qyburn and Oberyn are conspirators furthering southron ambitions. This does give me something to go on.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 14:49:23 GMT
I think the maesters know a lot more than they let on, and I think it's their job to educate the children and basically indoctrinate them in the "official stories". Just like real life. An astute social comment by Martin, I think.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 14:51:19 GMT
Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother...and an archmaester of the Cidatel for a father, it was rumored. Archmaester Walgrave IYAM.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 15:05:29 GMT
The purpose of placing maesters in Houses is to promote the Faith of the Seven and eliminate magic. So, why did Walys guide Rickard into marrying into more southern families? Surely the marriage alliances were viewed as threats by Aerys II? It would depend on what he was brought up to believe. If the idea was to overthrow the Targs, then he would promote alliances that would be strong enough to bring Aerys II down. And I doubt it was all to promote Rhaegar, the last dragon. Like Tywin and Roose, I think the citadel are playing with fate and allowing for more than one death among the Targ contingency. The children, Rhaenys and Aegon would be only half Targ. Not to mention they would've been easier for a well placed maester to guide and form to their liking. I do believe the Citadel thought highly of Tywin Lannister. He had Pycelle as his own personal cheerleader. Because of this I think the Citadel conspired to help get rid of the Targaryens and elevate a family that would best work with the Faith. Although, now Cersei is giving them some trouble, but I'm sure they appreciated the reinstatement of the Faith Militant. I doubt they appreciate a group with the power to displace them. If the Faith were to gain a foot hold, the way the maesters did, of having one member in each noble household to educate the children and breed little, faithful warriors, I can't see the Citadel taking that lying down. They'd be in direct competition to one another. One to educate the children on history, letters and numbers, while the other educates them on history of the 7, worship and dogma. Too risky for the maesters.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 15:17:52 GMT
Back to the OP...
If the ToJ was a ritual to hatch a living dragon from some combination of a dying man, a child about to be born and a magi, what happened to make it fail?
Did Ned showing up at the moment he did mess things up? Just like the fight outside of the tent, did the deaths of the 3 bloodriders mess up Drogo's healing and made him a zombie instead of a fully fledged khal?
Or did the ritual work, and the life force of the 3 KGs go into the eggs that were eventually given to Dany, and that's why they were able to hatch when a repeat of events happened around them?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 15:21:05 GMT
Another thought just occurred to me -- Martin tends to do things in 3s.
There are 3 dead KG outside the ToJ...
There are 3 dead Bloodriders outside the Tent...
There are 3 dead people in the funeral pyre...
Then we have 3 live dragons.
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Post by min on May 14, 2016 15:53:35 GMT
Back to the OP... If the ToJ was a ritual to hatch a living dragon from some combination of a dying man, a child about to be born and a magi, what happened to make it fail? Did Ned showing up at the moment he did mess things up? Just like the fight outside of the tent, did the deaths of the 3 bloodriders mess up Drogo's healing and made him a zombie instead of a fully fledged khal? Or did the ritual work, and the life force of the 3 KGs go into the eggs that were eventually given to Dany, and that's why they were able to hatch when a repeat of events happened around them? It given out that Ashara's gave birth to a stillborn girl. But I wonder if the dead baby was Wylla's, the wet nurse and this is another feint to hide the living child. Could this be the sacrificed child? ETA: Another thought... In Dany's HoU visions, she sees Rhaegar and a women with a newborn. He says, "there must be one more." So maybe two dragon eggs for two infants as the Targs are want to do. One for each infant. And I heard two screams from the tower. Where do dragons go? Locked up in towers.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 16:37:12 GMT
But I wonder if the dead baby was Wylla's, the wet nurse and this is another feint to hide the living child. One of these days I'm going to get my shit together and post my Ned's Bastard theory. I think Wylla really did have Ned's child, but if that child still lives is a mystery. Could be like you said, that was the sacrificial child.
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Post by min on May 14, 2016 17:13:02 GMT
But I wonder if the dead baby was Wylla's, the wet nurse and this is another feint to hide the living child. One of these days I'm going to get my shit together and post my Ned's Bastard theory. I think Wylla really did have Ned's child, but if that child still lives is a mystery. Could be like you said, that was the sacrificial child. Or Ashara birthed twins and the girl died and Lyanna makes three. With two boys surviving, Jon and Aegon. I think it's possible that Ashara took the name Wylla giving rise to the rumors about Wylla and the notion that the Fisherman's Daughter is pregnant or was pregnant and Ned was paying her off and sending her away. If Ned was returning to Winterfell with Jon and a wetnurse; Wylla as we learn later from Edric Dayne; is likely to be that wetnurse. Returning later to Starfall. We never know her name at Winterfell but it's likely she was the source of the rumors about Ashara especially since Cat wasn't around initially. I can't see Ned dallying with a servant anymore than I can see him looting his comrades.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 17:57:17 GMT
If Ned was returning to Winterfell with Jon and a wetnurse; Wylla as we learn later from Edric Dayne; is likely to be that wetnurse. Returning later to Starfall. We never know her name at Winterfell but it's likely she was the source of the rumors about Ashara especially since Cat wasn't around initially. I can't see Ned dallying with a servant anymore than I can see him looting his comrades. I think you're right. The rumours of Jon being Ashara's must've been started by the very existence of Wylla, the Dayne's wet nurse. She either initially dropping baby Jon off at Winterfell (which also, btw, explains why Ned is never seen taking Jon back to Winterfell), or Wylla stayed until Catelyn asks Ned about Ashara and Wylla's departure is what stops the gossip among the other servants. I'd shut up if I knew I'd be dismissed for talking about a certain subject, so I reckon the other servants would too.
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Post by Melifeather on May 14, 2016 19:27:01 GMT
What if Jon is Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne's child and she turned to Ned for help? Seems Brandon and Lady Barbery had a thing, but maybe this is an indication that Brandon was a womanizer?
I'm starting to think Lyanna never even had a child, that she was found with a corrupted sword wound like Drogo. Ned could have found Lyanna dying before he went to war, and then by the time he got to the tower of joy he saves Brandon's son from being sacrificed in a blood ritual meant to bring Rhaegar back to life. And since Dany survived the tent ritual and Rhaego died, Jon is the one that survived and Ashara died.
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Post by min on May 14, 2016 20:14:35 GMT
If Ned was returning to Winterfell with Jon and a wetnurse; Wylla as we learn later from Edric Dayne; is likely to be that wetnurse. Returning later to Starfall. We never know her name at Winterfell but it's likely she was the source of the rumors about Ashara especially since Cat wasn't around initially. I can't see Ned dallying with a servant anymore than I can see him looting his comrades. I think you're right. The rumours of Jon being Ashara's must've been started by the very existence of Wylla, the Dayne's wet nurse. She either initially dropping baby Jon off at Winterfell (which also, btw, explains why Ned is never seen taking Jon back to Winterfell), or Wylla stayed until Catelyn asks Ned about Ashara and Wylla's departure is what stops the gossip among the other servants. I'd shut up if I knew I'd be dismissed for talking about a certain subject, so I reckon the other servants would too. Was there anyone at Winterfell besides Benjen and few servants and retainers? Walys was gone by all accounts. The Fisherman's Daughter's story tells me that Ned was traveling as secretly as possible. Indeed, Benjen may know all about it. Recall his attempt to dissuade Jon from joining the Watch. He tells Jon that he can't possibly know what he would be giving up; what it means to love a woman and have children. Or something like it. I think he's talking about Ned. There is also Jon's dream of his mother, a noble woman and that she was kind. That sounds like a ringer for Lyanna unless you consider Lemore's kindness to Tyrion. Did Benjen go to the Wall on Ned's return? Lemore... L'amore.
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Post by Melifeather on May 14, 2016 20:32:40 GMT
When Brandon and Rickard leave Wiinterfell for Riverrun for the marriage to Catelyn, I believe Maester Walys was home taking care of a sick Lyanna who stayed home with red spots. Since I suspect a conspiracy involving the Citadel, Weasel Pie has good reason to shake his fist at Walys, because I believe he sedated her and got her out of Winterfell, where she was easily taken or fallen upon or whatever you want to call it.
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