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Post by Weasel Pie on May 21, 2016 14:02:13 GMT
Aerys could turn into a dragon after his fire sacrifices (?) This is why he had claws, and why Rhaella was covered in scratches.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 21, 2016 14:13:27 GMT
I call this one L'Eggo my R'Eggo. Dany laid an egg. Book Confirmation - all from AGoT Chapter 68 This is a dragon waking... literally Not enough? You want more? And here's a spattering. Keep in mind, she just birthed an egg. She doesn't ask for Rhaego. She asks for an egg. Bring me... Egg. GRRM even gave us an entire spinoff backstory to nail it home. L'Eggo my R'Eggo. Good catches all around.
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Post by alienarea on May 21, 2016 22:49:07 GMT
Maybe Lyanna died giving birth to a real dragon and she died of inner wounds from its scales and claws?
"Promise me, Ned, don't tell anyone I gave birth to this ..."
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 21, 2016 23:16:40 GMT
L'Eggo my R'Eggo. "Promise me, Ned, don't tell anyone I gave birth to this ..." or... promise me you'll find a way to cure my monster baby ... or... but ya know, you bring up a good point, and I could think of several rock-solid reasons for Lyanna to extract a promise if she birthed a monster baby/egg
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 22, 2016 0:49:13 GMT
Maybe Lyanna died giving birth to a real dragon and she died of inner wounds from its scales and claws? "Promise me, Ned, don't tell anyone I gave birth to this ..." A long time ago at Westeros I posted about this very thing, maybe in a convo with Preston Jacobs? Anyway, yeah, I can absolutely get on board with that! I always had the feeling that some of Dany's "dreams" during her pregnancy (like the Wake the Dragon one that Weasel Pie posted upthread) weren't necessarily dreams as they were memories....someone else's memories. Someone who would have been present in a blood magic ceremony and perhaps given birth to a literal, actual black dragon. A dragon reborn in blood and fire.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 23:01:58 GMT
Maybe Lyanna died giving birth to a real dragon and she died of inner wounds from its scales and claws? "Promise me, Ned, don't tell anyone I gave birth to this ..." Holy man. This theory will keep me occupied for a while!
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jun 26, 2016 18:23:00 GMT
This. I've always thought the same thing. Rhaegar honouring Lyanna was his way of telling her he knew she was the KotLT. We have two very different takes on the Rhaegar Lyanna story. The victor of the rebellion and Ned's children all believe Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. The losers of the rebellion all believe Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, Lyanna. So which is the truth? Usually we say the victor write the histories, meaning they elaborate things that make them look good; while the story the losers tell always makes the winners look bad. Somewhere between the two lies the truth. Additionally, and as JNR always like to say, there is no textual evidence of Rhaegar being with Lyanna at all after the tourney of Harrenhal. All we have is hearsay. And I doubt Rhaegar would look for a surrogate to have the third child (head of the dragon) outside the court he already has in place. Ashara is there and available, why hunt down and take Lyanna? Just so you can have a child of Ice and Fire, when you're convinced the Prince that was Promised is the son you already have? Not too sensible to me. I don't know about this .Unless Rhaegar was blind to me the visual displeasure from the Stark bench would and should have told him that his gesture misfired.Crap Brandon had to be restrained from kicking your arse.Ned wasn't so animated but it was clear that he was upset and to me telling of all is that Ned took the crown from Lyanna.Meaning she didn't touch it,it just stayed there on her lap.Her insides must have dropped. What's even more telling if this was meant to be an honor,wouldn't the honorable thing be to hold it out to her so "she" can take it or not from the end of the lance.Not just drop it on her lap.At the point where it was clear that the Starks were upset Rhaegar should have afterwards gone to his cousin or the Starks and said "hey i saw you guys were upset,i didn't mean no disrespect i just wanted to put that out there." Nope didn't happen so it's ether he was too proud...I made a booboo frack that,the Dragon doesn't apologize." Or it was meant to do exactly what it did,make a dig on Lyanna's honor in a way and to the only people who would know what it meant. Why would he do this? To cause an over reaction then kidnapp or work with someone to kidnapp Lyanna (i don't think so) I think it was a witty tease from Rhaegar that would have been forgotten about eventually until "someone" saw that jest as a means to stir up some shit. A moment of immaturity from a Prince broke the fragile straw that held up a dynasty.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 26, 2016 18:46:34 GMT
I don't know about this .Unless Rhaegar was blind to me the visual displeasure from the Stark bench would and should have told him that his gesture misfired.Crap Brandon had to be restrained from kicking your arse.Ned wasn't so animated but it was clear that he was upset and to me telling of all is that Ned took the crown from Lyanna.Meaning she didn't touch it,it just stayed there on her lap.Her insides must have dropped. What's even more telling if this was meant to be an honor,wouldn't the honorable thing be to hold it out to her so "she" can take it or not from the end of the lance.Not just drop it on her lap.At the point where it was clear that the Starks were upset Rhaegar should have afterwards gone to his cousin or the Starks and said "hey i saw you guys were upset,i didn't mean no disrespect i just wanted to put that out there." Nope didn't happen so it's ether he was too proud...I made a booboo frack that,the Dragon doesn't apologize." Or it was meant to do exactly what it did,make a dig on Lyanna's honor in a way and to the only people who would know what it meant. Why would he do this? To cause an over reaction then kidnapp or work with someone to kidnapp Lyanna (i don't think so) I think it was a witty tease from Rhaegar that would have been forgotten about eventually until "someone" saw that jest as a means to stir up some shit. A moment of immaturity from a Prince broke the fragile straw that held up a dynasty.I've always loved your take on this. The flowers being so tied to the Bael the Bard story and them representing Lyanna's loss of virginity. Now the implication of it is that Rhaegar is the Bard and took her virginity, since he's declaring to the world that Lyanna is no longer intact. But the thing that's always bothered me, and why I think it was done purposely to send a more private and innocent message is why I disagree with the bolded part of your statement. In order to get a crown of blue winter roses, Rhaegar, or maybe the host of the tourney, had to sent to Winterfell for them. They are grown nowhere else that we know of. So it's calculated. Not an impulsive thing to do at all. But I do agree that whatever innocent meaning Rhaegar might have been trying to convey got messed up. If he organised it as a nod to Lyanna being the KotLT, which would maybe be plausible for him to send a fast runner to Winterfell and get back in time (since Martin seems to confuse how long it takes to get from one place to another quite a lot in the books) in order to give them to her, it shows a level of calculation on his part we've not seen before either. So that's a bit out of character for him to do something like this without very good reason. In any case, I completely agree on the Stark reactions and Rhaegar's non-reaction to how they took his gesture -- it is strange. Rhaegar, of all the Targs we've seen, is the one to mostly be humble enough to apologise for the misinterpretation that happened. Particularly if he was hoping for the backing of these guys in his bid to oust his father. But like you said, we get sweet FA from him.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jun 27, 2016 5:13:55 GMT
I've always loved your take on this. The flowers being so tied to the Bael the Bard story and them representing Lyanna's loss of virginity. Now the implication of it is that Rhaegar is the Bard and took her virginity, since he's declaring to the world that Lyanna is no longer intact. But the thing that's always bothered me, and why I think it was done purposely to send a more private and innocent message is why I disagree with the bolded part of your statement. In order to get a crown of blue winter roses, Rhaegar, or maybe the host of the tourney, had to sent to Winterfell for them. They are grown nowhere else that we know of. So it's calculated. Not an impulsive thing to do at all. But I do agree that whatever innocent meaning Rhaegar might have been trying to convey got messed up. If he organised it as a nod to Lyanna being the KotLT, which would maybe be plausible for him to send a fast runner to Winterfell and get back in time (since Martin seems to confuse how long it takes to get from one place to another quite a lot in the books) in order to give them to her, it shows a level of calculation on his part we've not seen before either. So that's a bit out of character for him to do something like this without very good reason. In any case, I completely agree on the Stark reactions and Rhaegar's non-reaction to how they took his gesture -- it is strange. Rhaegar, of all the Targs we've seen, is the one to mostly be humble enough to apologise for the misinterpretation that happened. Particularly if he was hoping for the backing of these guys in his bid to oust his father. But like you said, we get sweet FA from him. Here's the thing and its something i've always argued.I don't think GRRM was making a connection to the Bael the Bard story by what happened with Lyanna i think fans made that connection because "blue winter roses" were involved.I do think it was Rhaegar's wit and he wasn't even saying he took Lyanna's virginity, though i believe that is a part ofwhat drew Brandon to KL.The Starks are to literal, LF pretty much accused Ned of the same thing.They have no sense of humour when it comes to that kind of thing.Tyrion in the Wolf's wood got Benjen the same way almost.They don't get that kind of crude humor all the time,but it is humor. I don't think it was premeditated and here's why.Rhaegar had to believe and ensure he won the tourney which is cray cray .He couldn't control the outcome of every contest ;even if he convinced his guys to let him win he can't control every other contest outcome that would ensure he made it to the final and that Barristan Selmy made it to the finals so Selmy could loose on purpose and lose fair.Too much variables. I agree with you that the roses were sent for from WF not as some grand plan but because they were rare and because the host wanted to add something rare to an already expensive and lavish tourney. I think It was an on the spot witty act " because" the rose happened to be blue winter roses that's why it's witty.Rhaegar "urged" his horse past his wife tells us something,he must have stopped infront of Elia to urge it forward. "Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." So basically this. Our learned and bookish Prince who most likely read about this wildling tale like 5,10,15yrs prior who knows, won the champion's laurel and was going to Crown his wife as everyone expected and he planned the moment he won. Making his rounds as he approached his wife it hit him that the Crown is made of winter roses and i know a secret and the Starks would get this so i'm going to "f**k" with them because its a tourney no harm no foul.Womg people to make those kinds of joke with. The sad thing is a symbol isn't a symbol until it has some meaning to someone, other than that its just an object.Keep that in mind again its all about perspective. 1. Ned like every other person was watching Rhaegar recieving the Crown right? So dangling on the edge of his lance as he made his way was a blue laurel,and it was blue when he was making his rounds.It was always "just a crown of blue winter roses" until Rhaegar dropped it on Lyanna's lap then it wasn't just that.This thing that was nothing became something based on the cultural perspective of everyone there.To most, Rhaegar dissed his wife and to the Starks Rhaegar dissed Lyanna. Secondly,what more private message could have been relayed with laying a crown of blue roses on Lyanna's lap that could be relayed when you sent to Winterfell to get the roses for the crown in the first place? I'm not buying that he "realized" she was TKOTLT and sent for roses to honor her because as i pointed out and you mentioned again, the Starks reaction to his gesture would have given him a hint that he fucked up and dissed his cousin's bethrothed and the Starks.He would have immediately, if not after rectified that instantly.Even if he wasn't near their seats and the laurel was dangling his 25ft lance he could have made a gestire of respect by dipping his head to his cousin,Lyanna's brother,then to Lyanna and then wait while she took the laurel off his lance instead of dropping it in her lap. 1.Everything tells us Rhager ignored the reaction by the Starks so he knew they may have not liked it. 2.Everything tells us it was unwelcomed by the Starks even Lyanna because again she made no move to handle the laurel,Ned did.
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Post by min on Jul 12, 2016 0:25:39 GMT
I've always loved your take on this. The flowers being so tied to the Bael the Bard story and them representing Lyanna's loss of virginity. Now the implication of it is that Rhaegar is the Bard and took her virginity, since he's declaring to the world that Lyanna is no longer intact. But the thing that's always bothered me, and why I think it was done purposely to send a more private and innocent message is why I disagree with the bolded part of your statement. In order to get a crown of blue winter roses, Rhaegar, or maybe the host of the tourney, had to sent to Winterfell for them. They are grown nowhere else that we know of. So it's calculated. Not an impulsive thing to do at all. But I do agree that whatever innocent meaning Rhaegar might have been trying to convey got messed up. If he organised it as a nod to Lyanna being the KotLT, which would maybe be plausible for him to send a fast runner to Winterfell and get back in time (since Martin seems to confuse how long it takes to get from one place to another quite a lot in the books) in order to give them to her, it shows a level of calculation on his part we've not seen before either. So that's a bit out of character for him to do something like this without very good reason. In any case, I completely agree on the Stark reactions and Rhaegar's non-reaction to how they took his gesture -- it is strange. Rhaegar, of all the Targs we've seen, is the one to mostly be humble enough to apologise for the misinterpretation that happened. Particularly if he was hoping for the backing of these guys in his bid to oust his father. But like you said, we get sweet FA from him. Here's the thing and its something i've always argued.I don't think GRRM was making a connection to the Bael the Bard story by what happened with Lyanna i think fans made that connection because "blue winter roses" were involved.I do think it was Rhaegar's wit and he wasn't even saying he took Lyanna's virginity, though i believe that is a part ofwhat drew Brandon to KL.The Starks are to literal, LF pretty much accused Ned of the same thing.They have no sense of humour when it comes to that kind of thing.Tyrion in the Wolf's wood got Benjen the same way almost.They don't get that kind of crude humor all the time,but it is humor. I don't think it was premeditated and here's why.Rhaegar had to believe and ensure he won the tourney which is cray cray .He couldn't control the outcome of every contest ;even if he convinced his guys to let him win he can't control every other contest outcome that would ensure he made it to the final and that Barristan Selmy made it to the finals so Selmy could loose on purpose and lose fair.Too much variables. I agree with you that the roses were sent for from WF not as some grand plan but because they were rare and because the host wanted to add something rare to an already expensive and lavish tourney. I think It was an on the spot witty act " because" the rose happened to be blue winter roses that's why it's witty.Rhaegar "urged" his horse past his wife tells us something,he must have stopped infront of Elia to urge it forward. "Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." So basically this. Our learned and bookish Prince who most likely read about this wildling tale like 5,10,15yrs prior who knows, won the champion's laurel and was going to Crown his wife as everyone expected and he planned the moment he won. Making his rounds as he approached his wife it hit him that the Crown is made of winter roses and i know a secret and the Starks would get this so i'm going to "f**k" with them because its a tourney no harm no foul.Womg people to make those kinds of joke with. The sad thing is a symbol isn't a symbol until it has some meaning to someone, other than that its just an object.Keep that in mind again its all about perspective. 1. Ned like every other person was watching Rhaegar recieving the Crown right? So dangling on the edge of his lance as he made his way was a blue laurel,and it was blue when he was making his rounds.It was always "just a crown of blue winter roses" until Rhaegar dropped it on Lyanna's lap then it wasn't just that.This thing that was nothing became something based on the cultural perspective of everyone there.To most, Rhaegar dissed his wife and to the Starks Rhaegar dissed Lyanna. Secondly,what more private message could have been relayed with laying a crown of blue roses on Lyanna's lap that could be relayed when you sent to Winterfell to get the roses for the crown in the first place? I'm not buying that he "realized" she was TKOTLT and sent for roses to honor her because as i pointed out and you mentioned again, the Starks reaction to his gesture would have given him a hint that he fucked up and dissed his cousin's bethrothed and the Starks.He would have immediately, if not after rectified that instantly.Even if he wasn't near their seats and the laurel was dangling his 25ft lance he could have made a gestire of respect by dipping his head to his cousin,Lyanna's brother,then to Lyanna and then wait while she took the laurel off his lance instead of dropping it in her lap. 1.Everything tells us Rhager ignored the reaction by the Starks so he knew they may have not liked it. 2.Everything tells us it was unwelcomed by the Starks even Lyanna because again she made no move to handle the laurel,Ned did. This is a pretty good explanation of what actually happened. I can accept it. I can only guess at his motivations; but this seems plausible to me. On a slight tangent; I question whether the blue roses are so rare they are only grown in Winterfell's greenhouse. When Ned comes out of his fugue state; Howland Reed tells him that he has been bringing Lyanna blue roses every day. Every day? Which begs the question... where were they? At the rickety Tower of Joy or Starfall? But it seems to me that Winterfell isn't the only source of blue roses.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 12, 2016 1:02:44 GMT
This is a pretty good explanation of what actually happened. I can accept it. I can only guess at his motivations; but this seems plausible to me. On a slight tangent; I question whether the blue roses are so rare they are only grown in Winterfell's greenhouse. When Ned comes out of his fugue state; Howland Reed tells him that he has been bringing Lyanna blue roses every day. Every day? Which begs the question... where were they? At the rickety Tower of Joy or Starfall? But it seems to me that Winterfell isn't the only source of blue roses. I missed this.When did this occur? I remember while he was in crypts with Robert he said he brought her "flowers" everyday.He didn't specify blue roses.
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Post by min on Jul 12, 2016 1:14:55 GMT
This is a pretty good explanation of what actually happened. I can accept it. I can only guess at his motivations; but this seems plausible to me. On a slight tangent; I question whether the blue roses are so rare they are only grown in Winterfell's greenhouse. When Ned comes out of his fugue state; Howland Reed tells him that he has been bringing Lyanna blue roses every day. Every day? Which begs the question... where were they? At the rickety Tower of Joy or Starfall? But it seems to me that Winterfell isn't the only source of blue roses. I missed this.When did this occur? I remember while he was in crypts with Robert he said he brought her "flowers" everyday.He didn't specify blue roses. It's GoT somewhere. Sorry, I don't have the exact quote. I believe it's one of Ned's dreams or recollections of Lyanna. I don't recall Robert saying that though. Perhaps, I'm mistaken.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 12, 2016 3:30:49 GMT
I missed this.When did this occur? I remember while he was in crypts with Robert he said he brought her "flowers" everyday.He didn't specify blue roses. It's GoT somewhere. Sorry, I don't have the exact quote. I believe it's one of Ned's dreams or recollections of Lyanna. I don't recall Robert saying that though. Perhaps, I'm mistaken. No Robert didn't say that,Ned did: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. " I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."-GOT
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Post by min on Jul 12, 2016 9:37:30 GMT
It's GoT somewhere. Sorry, I don't have the exact quote. I believe it's one of Ned's dreams or recollections of Lyanna. I don't recall Robert saying that though. Perhaps, I'm mistaken. No Robert didn't say that,Ned did: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. " I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."-GOT That's the one. Now that I see it; he doesn't really say blue roses, just that the room smelled of roses. "I bring her flowers when I can?" - again, What?
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 12, 2016 15:27:44 GMT
I really think it's possible the roses were never blue. Blue is just symbolic of death.
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