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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 18, 2016 15:31:33 GMT
A big deal was made out of Petyr saying "your sister" instead of "Only Cat" to Lysa, before pushing her out the moon door. What if this is a deliberate parallel from D&D, as we're suspecting many of the changes are? Since Robert (and Ned) was fostered at the Eyrie, he would have been familiar with the mood(maid) door. Being pushed out of the moon door seems to me to be the equivalent of jumping (or being pushed) off the top of a tower. So bam, right there, we connect Petyr Baelish and Bael the Bard. Ok, working this out in my head. Bael and Baelish are both Deceivers in-story. They each 'stole' a Stark maiden, seemingly an opportunistic thing but in reality planned out a long time in advance. Bael stole the Stark daughter as revenge upon Brandon the Daughterless who had called him craven. Littlefinger stole Sansa as revenge upon Lannisters (after he had already gotten revenge on the Starks in a fashion). Bael takes the Stark maiden down down down to the crypts of Winterfell. Littlefinger takes Sansa up up up to the Eyrie. Bael fathers a son on the Stark maiden and Littlefinger takes Alayne as a daughter, both to establish an eventual claim to Winterfell. Littlefinger pushes his wife/Sansa's aunt Lysa from the Moon Door (the tower) as she is threatening to kill Sansa. The Stark daughter throws herself from the tower after the son kills his father Bael. Littlefinger's plans for Winterfell are interrupted by the Boltons taking a 'Stark' daughter to wed. Bael's son (now Lord of Winterfell) is shortly after killed by a Bolton. So we need the middle head to complete the Trio. During the Rebellion days, who was the Deceiver that wanted access to Winterfell? What was the relationship? Which direction did they go? Was there a Bolton involved at the end?
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Post by Melifeather on May 18, 2016 15:35:06 GMT
So we need the middle head to complete the Trio. Robert taking Lyanna is the middle head for the moon/ice side. He's "bael" the deceiver, because he dressed in disguise as Rhaegar.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 18, 2016 15:37:46 GMT
Robert taking Lyanna is the middle head for the moon/ice side. He's "bael" the deceiver, because he dressed in disguise as Rhaegar. I know you're sticking to your guns on that one, but I just can't buy into it. Sorry. IMO Mance Rayder is totally worth a revist, though.
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Post by Melifeather on May 18, 2016 15:52:41 GMT
Is there something about a cycle of three?
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Post by min on May 18, 2016 16:06:50 GMT
A big deal was made out of Petyr saying "your sister" instead of "Only Cat" to Lysa, before pushing her out the moon door. What if this is a deliberate parallel from D&D, as we're suspecting many of the changes are? Since Robert (and Ned) was fostered at the Eyrie, he would have been familiar with the mood(maid) door. Being pushed out of the moon door seems to me to be the equivalent of jumping (or being pushed) off the top of a tower. So bam, right there, we connect Petyr Baelish and Bael the Bard. Ok, working this out in my head. Bael and Baelish are both Deceivers in-story. They each 'stole' a Stark maiden, seemingly an opportunistic thing but in reality planned out a long time in advance. Bael stole the Stark daughter as revenge upon Brandon the Daughterless who had called him craven. Littlefinger stole Sansa as revenge upon Lannisters (after he had already gotten revenge on the Starks in a fashion). Bael takes the Stark maiden down down down to the crypts of Winterfell. Littlefinger takes Sansa up up up to the Eyrie. Bael fathers a son on the Stark maiden and Littlefinger takes Alayne as a daughter, both to establish an eventual claim to Winterfell. Littlefinger pushes his wife/Sansa's aunt Lysa from the Moon Door (the tower) as she is threatening to kill Sansa. The Stark daughter throws herself from the tower after the son kills his father Bael. Littlefinger's plans for Winterfell are interrupted by the Boltons taking a 'Stark' daughter to wed. Bael's son (now Lord of Winterfell) is shortly after killed by a Bolton. So we need the middle head to complete the Trio. During the Rebellion days, who was the Deceiver that wanted access to Winterfell? What was the relationship? Which direction did they go? Was there a Bolton involved at the end? Tywin Lannister, Ramsey Bolton, Tyrion
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 18, 2016 16:28:54 GMT
First Men - Magic exists Andals - Magic is contained, religion introduced Rhoynar - ? Targaryens - brought their own magic I think we need to add the fifth turn of the wheel here, because the Targaryens are gone and a new age has begun. An age dominated by Eleni's heir with the help of First Man's magic*. Both winners are direct descendants from the Age of Heroes. If you look at strictly from a old becomes new again tale, then we have the first and last invaders of Westeros represented by these two men. Robert is both Durrandon and Targaryen. Ned is all First Men. That the first king to sit the Iron Throne (ie dominate all of Westeros, not the throne invented by the Targs) is once again a direct descendant of the daughter of wind and sea, is huge, (no pun intended) because the bloodline of that magic is for the first time in thousands of years in charge of the realm. And the claim could not have been possible without the help of the First Man with him in his quest. I'm thinking this alone was enough to open the hinge. It also makes me wonder is the hinge would've held had Ned taken the throne. *not implying Ned is magical, but Howland Reed, who does have some kind of magic to him, saves his life and thus ensuring that a First Man will rule the kingdom as Hand.
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Post by Melifeather on May 18, 2016 16:40:12 GMT
First Men - Magic exists Andals - Magic is contained, religion introduced Rhoynar - ? Targaryens - brought their own magic I think we need to add the fifth turn of the wheel here, because the Targaryens are gone and a new age has begun. An age dominated by Eleni's heir with the help of First Man's magic*. Both winners are direct descendants from the Age of Heroes. If you look at strictly from a old becomes new again tale, then we have the first and last invaders of Westeros represented by these two men. Robert is both Durrandon and Targaryen. Ned is all First Men. That the first king to sit the Iron Throne (ie dominate all of Westeros, not the throne invented by the Targs) is once again a direct descendant of the daughter of wind and sea, is huge, (no pun intended) because the bloodline of that magic is for the first time in thousands of years in charge of the realm. And the claim could not have been possible without the help of the First Man with him in his quest. I'm thinking this alone was enough to open the hinge. It also makes me wonder is the hinge would've held had Ned taken the throne. *not implying Ned is magical, but Howland Reed, who does have some kind of magic to him, saves his life and thus ensuring that a First Man will rule the kingdom as Hand. You're quite right that a fifth turning is happening, but i think what some of us were wondering is if it was also going to be turning in reverse with the return of dragons? We'll have to see if Dany will bring the dragons, since she's the mother that birthed them, or if Euron Greyjoy will be successful in taking her dragons since they're in the conqueror position on the wheel of time. Which actually makes me wonder if the Targaryens took their dragons from an original source in Asshai? I think the hinge getting unraveled was due to multiple events, and maybe even the blood ritual that SomePig suspects happened in the tower of joy. If the wheel of time is going in reverse, but with different consequences, maybe we'll see Euron fail, Arianne (Rhoynar) fail, an Andal attempt fail (Jaime perhaps), and the final will be a First Men descendent?
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Post by Melifeather on May 18, 2016 16:57:33 GMT
If Euron, Arianne, and Cersei/Jaime fail in rapid succession, then the wheel is moving quickly backwards in time. Having the First Men descendant be last also fits with Leaf's words that the wolves will outlast us all. min are you sure all this doesn't belong under your Hinge theory thread? Just wondering.
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Post by Melifeather on May 18, 2016 17:00:52 GMT
Actually, I would love this info included or at least copied under my Eating the Dragon's tail opening essay since it deals with the inversion of time.
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Post by min on May 18, 2016 17:09:03 GMT
Actually, I would love this info included or at least copied under my Eating the Dragon's tail opening essay since it deals with the inversion of time. I think you should include it in the Eating the Dragon's Tail under Cycles of Time.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 18, 2016 17:14:25 GMT
If the wheel of time is going in reverse, but with different consequences, maybe we'll see Euron fail, Arianne (Rhoynar) fail, an Andal attempt fail (Jaime perhaps), and the final will be a First Men descendent? If that's the case, and I must say I like it, then we kind of already have the beginning of that happening. Ned failed as Hand, his family is blown about. The Lannisters still have the throne, but their family is also now in the same position as the Starks -- the patriarch dead and the siblings divided. The Greyjoys, same thing. Balon is dead and while his brothers and daughter came together for a time, they too are now spread across the world. The only one of the families to still have it's patriarch is the Martell family. But even with them, we have Oberyn dead and his daughters spread out. Quentyn dead and Arianne going in search of the new king.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 18, 2016 17:19:16 GMT
During the Rebellion days, who was the Deceiver that wanted access to Winterfell? Mance Rayder aka Mansion (Castle) Raider aka Abel?
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Post by Melifeather on May 18, 2016 17:20:29 GMT
Actually, I would love this info included or at least copied under my Eating the Dragon's tail opening essay since it deals with the inversion of time. I think you should include it in the Eating the Dragon's Tail under Cycles of Time. With everyone's blessing, I would like to copy some of this into that essay. Thanks! Actually, Weasel Pie I was thinking this is Bran the Timelord's doing...although, when he was broken and unconscious and saw the storm brewing, was this his own creation or Bloodravens? Because if Bran reversed the wheel of time by opening the hinge, then basically that means it's Bran's fault that Robert betrayed the Starks by kidnapping Lyanna, causing both a moon/ice and sun/fire maiden to be killed. If he hadn't broke the wheel, Ashara would have been the only maiden killed as that was her destiny. The repeats are weird though...the saving of the maidens, like Jon with Ygritte and Littlefinger with Sansa.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 18, 2016 18:10:41 GMT
Actually, Weasel Pie I was thinking this is Bran the Timelord's doing Bran repeating The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The moon was fat and full The moon was a black hole in the sky BOOM
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 18, 2016 18:13:28 GMT
Mance Rayder aka Mansion (Castle) Raider aka Abel? Gods, if we could flesh this out and merge it with Mance = Rhaegar = UnRhaegar Dragon at TOJ, my life would be complete. Also, in reading some threads over at the W, I noticed that nanother posted the following quote, which brought on some foreshadowgasming. I mean, really? How much more irony can I take here?
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