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Post by Maester Flagons on May 23, 2016 11:54:47 GMT
Ned was leaving for the Eyrie. by Meli
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 23, 2016 11:58:20 GMT
Good catch on the spider like movement of the dead. If they were covered in ice and hoarfrost they might look like giant ice spiders.
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Post by Melifeather on May 23, 2016 12:06:12 GMT
I was thinking about Hodor and young Hodor on the show and I think this is how the show demonstrated that Bran can time travel into the past and change events. I mean, how else could they show it in a way the viewing audience would understand?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 12:46:19 GMT
this is how the show demonstrated that Bran can time travel into the past and change events. Yes. How it will play out in the book, I don't know, it could be a little different. They hinted at that last week when Ned "heard" Bran. Just like in the book when Ned hears him through the tree. Physically showing Bran time-travelling nails the point home for the audience I think, but I don't think it will be like that in the book. Bran will need to warg to "physically" be there. I think. lol
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 23, 2016 12:53:48 GMT
Of course the "hold the door" line is an old 'theory' of Hodor's one word vocabulary so I don't see that as a book spoiler. Hodor's condition, well, I think that will be very similar to the show version.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 23, 2016 13:34:01 GMT
But I think D&D have made the wights too spritely and nimble. And they eat their victims like zombies, what?? LOLyeah, apparently D&D are under the impression that icewight zombies can parkour.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 13:38:12 GMT
But I think D&D have made the wights too spritely and nimble. And they eat their victims like zombies, what?? LOLyeah, apparently D&D are under the impression that icewight zombies can parkour. yup, it was World War Z
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 23, 2016 13:46:18 GMT
How it will play out in the book, I don't know, it could be a little different. They hinted at that last week when Ned "heard" Bran. Just like in the book when Ned hears him through the tree. Physically showing Bran time-travelling nails the point home for the audience I think, but I don't think it will be like that in the book. Bran will need to warg to "physically" be there. I think. Agreed. The book will certainly be more nuanced. I guess, anyway....this is assuming it will be written. Is anyone else getting the feeling that Bran isn't the first to have monkeyed around with the time continuum like this? I'm wondering if we'll get a reveal (that isn't really pertinent to Unsullied) showing that BookRaven perhaps created some paradoxes of his own and needed Bran to "fix" them - not realizing, of course, that paradoxes are like prophecy in that fixes and avoidance tactics bring on the problem in the first place. I'm thinking Summerhall.
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Post by snowfyre on May 23, 2016 14:30:00 GMT
Glad folks enjoyed the episode. I'm still not watching... but I've taken to reading episode summaries to find out where D&D are taking things. Sounds to me like this latest installment was fun for viewers, but it ALSO seems clear that D&D have been left to their own devices on solving Martin's big mysteries. In fact, I'd almost say the show just "went all World book," in the sense that it's hard not to believe the writers are pulling their ideas off fan boards at this point. I mean... "Hodor" ~ "Hold the door?" That was just a bad joke among fans before last night. (Not to put down the show - I'm impressed to hear people say they were moved by Hodor's final fate. D&D made it work.) Anyway. In the books there's simply no way the CotF end up being responsible for the Others. And I think, ultimately, the chance of the show spoiling Martin's larger story/mysteries turns out to be quite small.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 14:41:34 GMT
Is anyone else getting the feeling that Bran isn't the first to have monkeyed around with the time continuum like this? For certain BR messed with things, 100% agree. Not sure how they're playing showBR (waited 1,000 years? is that another time paradox thing?) I've also had the impression that (my version of) TardisBran may have done some stuff in the past because that's the story he heard. Sort of the way Rhaegar said "I guess I'm supposed to be a warrior." After all prophecies are self-fulfilling, etc. In this case, Bran might be so paranoid to change things that he tries to relive the fairy tales. If that makes sense. And I sort of figured something out, I think. If Bran was warging Hodor with one foot still in the past, that means youngHodor was (sort of) confronted with future Hodor, that's what created the paradox. In the books there's simply no way the CotF end up being responsible for the Others. The show version asks more questions than it answers. Did D&D choose a course that makes for good TV? If it doesn't change the ultimate end, maybe so.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 23, 2016 14:49:08 GMT
In the books there's simply no way the CotF end up being responsible for the Others. Can you elaborate on why you doubt this possibility? I tend to zone out in the Heresy discussions about this because it's theory overload, so if you can provide a brief synopsis I would be most interested. Is there something in the books that automatically precludes it?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 15:28:14 GMT
I mean... "Hodor" ~ "Hold the door?" That was just a bad joke among fans before last night. According to D&D it's not. The origin of Hodor's only saying Hodor came from Martin. I remember seeing an interview with Martin were he was asked that very question and his answer was the usual, it'll be in the books or something equally like a non answer.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 15:47:57 GMT
So, the CotF created the first White Walker by plunging an obsidian dagger (looked like) into their heart. Along with, presumably, some other magic. I got the impression that it was the tree that turned him into an Other. The obsidian blade went through the man and it hit the tree, then the tree filled the man. The shot of the tree afterwards, when bran returns on his own, is of a dead and blasted apart weirwood. All the other weirwoods we've seen don't lose their leaves in the winter, yet that one has none. If I remember correctly, Tower of Joy over on Heresy's theory was that the Others were the spirits of dead weirwoods, so it's plausible. His theory was rather different though, it was more about where did all the spirits within the weirwoods that were cut down go, not deliberate human sacrifice. If this is how Martin will do it, is another story though.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 15:54:20 GMT
The obsidian blade went through the man and it hit the tree, then the tree filled the man. The shot of the tree afterwards, when bran returns on his own, is of a dead and blasted apart weirwood. All the other weirwoods we've seen don't lose their leaves in the winter, yet that one has none. whoa man. It's not like there aren't lightening-blasted stumps in the book hahaa /sarcasm. wow! Fantastic catch there!
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Post by snowfyre on May 23, 2016 15:59:51 GMT
Did D&D choose a course that makes for good TV? If it doesn't change the ultimate end, maybe so. Right. I'm not putting down the show, necessarily. From the reactions I've seen online, it sounds like everyone loved the episode. Can you elaborate on why you doubt this possibility? ...if you can provide a brief synopsis I would be most interested. Is there something in the books that automatically precludes it? Sure. I do think that Martin's story precludes this from being a logical explanation in the novels. And you'll have to correct me if I've misunderstood the explanation presented by HBO - since I didn't see it myself - but basically, it boils down the issue of timelines. In the books, per generally accepted timelines, we have the following sequence of events: - CotF exist in Westeros for eons.
- ~12,000 years ago - First Men arrive with horses, bronze swords, and fire.
- ...CotF war against First Men for thousands of years... cannot win. In fact, are losing.
- ~10,000 yrs ago... The Pact is forged by CotF and First Men, begins 4,000 years of peace and friendship.
- ~8,000 yrs ago... Now the Others show up, and are eventually defeated. The Long Night happens, ends. House Stark and Night's Watch established.
- ...the Pact continues, for another couple thousand years
- ~6,000 yrs ago... (or later, but certainly no earlier) the Andals arrive in Westeros
- ...Andals proceed to war against First Men and the CotF. Weirwoods are destroyed; CotF are killed or driven away... flee north
During thousands of years of warfare against the First Men... no Others. During a time of peace between FM and CotF after the Pact... Others and the Long Night. Following the Long Night, with both CotF and FM once again living side by side in Westeros... no Others. And then, when the Andals arrive thousands of years later to wage war against the CoTF... no Others.
So basically, the question that has to be answered - if the Others were a creation of the CoTF - is why the Others would have appeared when they did, and neither before nor since. Because we may quibble about the exact dates for some of these events, but assuming the general sequence of the timeline is correct then the Others were deployed when least needed... and held back when they'd have been most helpful to the CotF.
Add to that some of the things we've seen taking place in Martin's current narrative, and it's clear (to me, at least) that there will be a more satisfying explanation in the books. For one thing... and stepping back to a consideration of his overarching theme... Martin's said from the outset that this story, as Faulkner prescribed, is a story about the conflict(s) of the human heart. Which, of course, is not to say there are no monsters in the tale. Quite the opposite, obviously. But the point is that the monster is a human creation. And the horrors of the past... are our horrors, from our past, which we ultimately must confront and overcome (or accept) ourselves. That's the tragedy and the challenge of the Other and the Self.
And there may be more than one useful, famous quote by Faulkner here. Two, at least, seem clearly relevant to me:
- "The problems of the human heart in conflict with itself... alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat." And...
- "The past is never dead. It's not even past."
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