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Post by snowfyre on May 23, 2016 16:02:01 GMT
whoa man. It's not like there aren't lightening-blasted stumps in the book hahaa /sarcasm. wow! Fantastic catch there! My immediate thought as well. Nice catch, Ser Duncan. It would be pretty damn cool to see that "lightning-blasted chestnut, overgrown with wild white roses" turn out to have some relevance in the end. (Even if I do question D&D's explanation of WW origins.)
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 16:22:31 GMT
My immediate thought as well. Nice catch, Ser Duncan. It would be pretty damn cool to see that "lightning-blasted chestnut, overgrown with wild white roses" turn out to have some relevance in the end. (Even if I do question D&D's explanation of WW origins.) Yes, I'm not convinced this is how it will play out in the books myself. I've been trying to find a clip of the sacrifice so that you can hear the sound effects of it, that's were I got the impression it was the spearing of both man and tree, then the later shots of the tree being dead. Either I'm crap at finding stuff (quite possibly) or there are not enough clips up yet.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 16:27:02 GMT
I just had another thought about the warding on the cave and how being touched by the Night's King broke the warding on the cave. If Bran goes behind the Wall, as I said last night, them is this how the Others will breach the Wall?
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Post by snowfyre on May 23, 2016 16:37:05 GMT
I've been trying to find a clip of the sacrifice so that you can hear the sound effects of it, that's were I got the impression it was the spearing of both man and tree, then the later shots of the tree being dead. Not sure about later shots of the dead tree... but I found the sacrifice clip. Looks like it's probably an obsidian knife. It's not clear the tree gets stabbed though: www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgZFBy0zF50Are there spirals all over the place in the show? Or is that supposed to indicate the sacrifice happened at the Fist of the First Men? (Which is the only place I recall there being a spiral - through early in season 4, anyway. )
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 17:03:06 GMT
Which is the only place I recall there being a spiral Season One Episode One! Horse heads.
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Post by snowfyre on May 23, 2016 17:06:37 GMT
Season One Episode One! Horse heads. Yeah, but... was that the Fist? Or somewhere else? Did they identify the place?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 17:15:29 GMT
Hmm, no. Will, Gared and Waymar coming upon the slaughtered village, just like in the book GoT prologue. Not identified as a particular place.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 23, 2016 17:16:40 GMT
Even with the HBO version of the creation of the Other, it leaves open where in the frozen hell they've been since. Just biding their time for the perfect storm?
And why did the fellow who was turned to an Other look like an Andal?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 17:23:28 GMT
not how I remembered it, but here they are So S1E1 was not a spiral. Looks a bit like Sansa's necklace when she went all BlackWidow.
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Post by snowfyre on May 23, 2016 17:36:51 GMT
Yep. But I'm tempted to view these patterns as support for the argument that D&D rely on "magic" as the fallback explanation for the mysteries of Martin's tale. Because these patterns and symbols point, ultimately, to the unknown and unfamiliar, non-human work of the CotF. (Or at least, that's what they claim in that " Inside the Episode" chat. Which I just watched. They are "ancient symbols of the Children of the Forest, used in their rituals.") (Edit moved to separate comment.)
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 17:39:00 GMT
Not sure about later shots of the dead tree... but I found the sacrifice clip. Looks like it's probably an obsidian knife. It's not clear the tree gets stabbed though: No it's not too clear, but it is a rather long blade and the tree is next seen dead. Just to show you what I mean, here's two shots of weirwoods in winter landscapes, from the show. Compare it to the tree in the scene where Bran gets touched by the NK. Long shot of the tree starts at about 0:18. Oops forgot to add the clip! www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JnvJrUEjM4
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Post by Melifeather on May 23, 2016 17:43:52 GMT
Did D&D choose a course that makes for good TV? If it doesn't change the ultimate end, maybe so. Right. I'm not putting down the show, necessarily. From the reactions I've seen online, it sounds like everyone loved the episode. Can you elaborate on why you doubt this possibility? ...if you can provide a brief synopsis I would be most interested. Is there something in the books that automatically precludes it? Sure. I do think that Martin's story precludes this from being a logical explanation in the novels. And you'll have to correct me if I've misunderstood the explanation presented by HBO - since I didn't see it myself - but basically, it boils down the issue of timelines. In the books, per generally accepted timelines, we have the following sequence of events: - CotF exist in Westeros for eons.
- ~12,000 years ago - First Men arrive with horses, bronze swords, and fire.
- ...CotF war against First Men for thousands of years... cannot win. In fact, are losing.
- ~10,000 yrs ago... The Pact is forged by CotF and First Men, begins 4,000 years of peace and friendship.
- ~8,000 yrs ago... Long Night ends, House Stark and Night's Watch established
- ~6,000 yrs ago... (or later, but certainly no earlier) the Andals arrive in Westeros
- ...Andals proceed to war against First Men and the CotF. Weirwoods are destroyed; CotF are killed or driven away... flee north
During thousands of years of warfare against the First Men... no Others. During a time of peace between FM and CotF after the Pact... Others and the Long Night. Following the Long Night, with both CotF and FM once again living side by side in Westeros... no Others. And then - key point - when the Andals arrive thousands of years later to wage war against the CoTF... no Others.
So basically, the question that has to be answered - if the Others were a creation of the CoTF - is why the Others would have appeared when they did, and neither before nor since. Because we may quibble about the exact dates for some of these events, but assuming the general sequence of the timeline is correct then the Others were deployed when least needed... and held back when they'd have been most helpful to the CotF.
Add to that some of the things we've seen taking place in Martin's current narrative, and it's clear (to me, at least) that there will be a more satisfying explanation in the books. For one thing... and stepping back to a consideration of his overarching theme... Martin's said from the outset that this story, as Faulkner prescribed, is a story about the conflict(s) of the human heart. Which, of course, is not to say there are no monsters in the tale. Quite the opposite, obviously. But the point is that the monster is a human creation. And the horrors of the past... are our horrors, from our past, which we ultimately must confront and overcome (or accept) ourselves. That's the tragedy and the challenge of the Other and the Self.
And there may be more than one useful, famous quote by Faulkner here. Two, at least, seem clearly relevant to me:
- "The problems of the human heart in conflict with itself... alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat." And...
- "The past is never dead. It's not even past."
This is closer to my understanding as well, although I'm thinking we may differ on some things. However, I think GRRM's book version didn't translate easily to the tv screen, plus I have a hard time accepting that GRRM would allow his biggest mysteries to be solved by the show before he writes them.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 17:44:02 GMT
And why did the fellow who was turned to an Other look like an Andal? I've been wondering the same damned thing. It would certainly make more sense if they created the Others after the Andal invasion, but that doesn't fit with the history told in the story.
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Post by Melifeather on May 23, 2016 17:45:56 GMT
I just had another thought about the warding on the cave and how being touched by the Night's King broke the warding on the cave. If Bran goes behind the Wall, as I said last night, them is this how the Others will breach the Wall? I wonder if it has anything to do with Bran and Co entering the north through the Black Gate?
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 23, 2016 17:47:09 GMT
Yep. But I'm tempted to view these patterns as support for the argument that D&D rely on "magic" as the fallback explanation for the mysteries of Martin's tale. Because these patterns and symbols point, ultimately, to the unknown and unfamiliar, non-human work of the CotF. (At least, that's what they claim in that " Inside the Episode" chat. Which I just watched. Looking at the pattern of the tree and stones spiraling outward, it reminds of a spiral galaxy with the weirwood as the focal point. So, yeah, magical seasons and the thousands of years between Other happenings to come together when everything is aligned.
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