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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jun 20, 2016 14:34:27 GMT
Mainly because of her childish self-centered-ness and betrayal of her father that basically led to his beheading. Don't forget the "I forgot" it-doesn't-count-as-lying lying over the Arya/Joff encounter that 1) could have led to the severe punishment or even death of her own sister and 2) that DID lead to the death of her own direwolf. Then proceed to the narcing to Cersei, etc. She clearly doesn't learn anything. In the books, she's probably going to end up helping Littlefinger murder Sweetrobin, too, and she'll do it because she is promised a Myrish lace dress for her wedding to Harry the Heir or some extra lemoncakes or something. Ugggggh, I HATE Sansa.
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Post by Melifeather on Jun 20, 2016 15:03:13 GMT
Maybe Sansa knew Jon would react emotionally and counted on it, which played better for the Vale soldiers? While Ramsay's forces had their backs turned towards Jon they could arrive unnoticed. If you think about it, this was a replay of when Stannis took out the wildlings. Maybe Sansa was listening and deliberately counted on Jon leading with emotion. If this is true then Sansa is the ruthless military strategist and learned from the Lannisters and from Stannis.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 16:11:07 GMT
I fail to see how Jon played into Ramsay's hands. Jon with the smaller army has few options. What I would've liked to've seen was more tricks up Jon's sleeve. He knows the terrain better than Ramsay ever would, so placing some men in places not easily seen from the Bolton array would be a good start. He said he dug trenches in order to avoid a pincer move, but if this is the extent of his strategy, then he deserved to die, again. He's got both the wildlings and Davos there to help him come up with ideas. Wildlings, I might point out, that blend into the terrain much better than armoured soldiers. And I have a hard time imagining Davos having learned nothing from the years spent with Stannis. Basically Jon did what Stannis did with almost the same result.
As for Sansa, pfft, her advice came too little too late. Don't play into Ramsay's hands. Don't get emotional. Wait for a bigger army. I know him better than you do and I know what he's capable of. How's about some concrete help there lassie.
Don't play into his hands -- if they knew what Ramsay was planning on doing, then they wouldn't need any of her help because they would know how to go about defeating him as well.
Wait for a bigger army -- if she'd let him know help was on the way, then yes, by all means do so. Otherwise the only thing waiting would accomplish is to decimate his own army through infighting and starvation. That's wildlings on his side lady. Wildlings that most every single house in the north hates and are now having to share land with. Now they're living in even closer proximity. They showed no fighting between the two, so clearly they've made peace and are bosom buddies now. Seems legit.
I know him better than you do -- care to share some of the knowledge, aside from Rickon being dead from the moment he was brought before Ramsay? And of course she knows Ramsay better, he's her husband. What on earth is Jon going to do with info of his being a sadistic killer on the one to one scale when it comes to armies and allies?
I know what he's capable of -- no you don't know what he's capable of on the battlefield. You may know how he took Moat Cailin, or how he sneaked out into the middle of the night to destroy some tents and morale at Stannis' camp, but from what I recall, you were no more privy to Roose's military plans any more than you were to Theon's involvement in the taking of Winterfell. And let's face it all she could bring to the strategy table on this subject is nothing any good military commander that's had to deal with wildlings and their treachery, would be on the look out for in the first place.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 16:19:09 GMT
What about Bran? It's OK, Jon keeps forgetting to mention him to Sansa too. Heh, no I've not forgotten Bran. That's why I put last in quotes. I reference both Rickon and Wun Wun as last of their respective lines because they are the last males that can continue their lines. For all I know Wun Wun has a sister, Wunnetta.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 16:25:18 GMT
I just realized Ser Duncan - Jon uses the Mormont shield when he approaches Ramsay. Thanks for pointing that out, totally missed the significance. Oh sorry, I shouldn't assume everyone notices or gets things the same way I do. And come now, Mormont as a shield, really? I still can't get over that. I'm also sure it's some fuck up by the props department and not meant to be intentional in it's implications at all. Still, of all the shields there on that day, Mormont. And inside Winterfell.
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Post by Melifeather on Jun 20, 2016 16:43:17 GMT
I fail to see how Jon played into Ramsay's hands. J Jon and Davos discussed the Pincer movement they suspected that Ramsay would use and they both knew how important it was to wait where they were with the trenches dug on either side of their army, but Jon's emotions got the best of him and he didn't wait for Ramsay's attack like they planned. They ran outside the trenches they had dug, so yes, he fell right into Ramsay's hands. I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that this is what Sansa suspected, but for her to be a military strategist she would have had to have known that Littlefinger was actually coming. She counted on Jon reacting with emotion, so Jon was basically bait, because using the wildling forces and Jon as bait was better for the forces of the Vale.
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Post by Melifeather on Jun 20, 2016 16:43:59 GMT
I just realized Ser Duncan - Jon uses the Mormont shield when he approaches Ramsay. Thanks for pointing that out, totally missed the significance. Oh sorry, I shouldn't assume everyone notices or gets things the same way I do. And come now, Mormont as a shield, really? I still can't get over that. I'm also sure it's some fuck up by the props department and not meant to be intentional in it's implications at all. Still, of all the shields there on that day, Mormont. And inside Winterfell. Where are you two seeing Jon using a Mormont shield? The only shield I saw him use was a Stark shield.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 16:58:36 GMT
And now we have Sansa reverting to Season 1 Sansa....the self-absorbed me-me-me girl who doesn't give a shit if her family dies as a result of her machinations as long as she gets what she wants? Gods, I loathe her character. If GRRM gives her all this grrl power in the books, I will burn them. This will most likely come back to bite me in the arse, but I think she has changed from that self-centred as a Rollo girl of season 1. While on the outside it does look like she doesn't give two shites about her family, but I beg to differ. She and anyone with a brain (which apparently does not include me since I didn't want him to die) knows Rickon is dead.* She didn't tell Jon about Littlefinger coming to the rescue, I feel is because of 2 reasons. 1. The intense shame she must feel about all the things she's done and gone through at his hands. She clearly lays it all on LF's feet and has the balls to tell him he's banished from her presence until he can repair the damage he's done. Jon would never've trusted him on the battlefield. He'd think it just as likely for LF to turn to Ramsay's side, since he's a Lannister royalist, than help the North regain it's independence. 2. Sansa's involvement with LF is a secret. Not the outward crap, everyone knows she was given to Ramsay by him and that he's been instrumental is removing her from KL. The private stuff like her lying to cover for him, her trust of his plans and (seen from without) her being complicit in Joff's death thanks to his machinations. These are intimate links to a man she now hates. Also let's not forget, Sansa wasn't close with Jon and never called him brother until she realised she's got little to no family left. Would she've told Robb she secured LF's backing? I don't think so. What she has done is grown from the experiences she's been through. I'm sure part of her didn't believe LF and the Vale would come to the rescue, so why mention it. She knows, despite the smack, she's got Sweet Robin, he's at least on her side, but she also knows LF can talk him in or out of anything. And despite her hate of LF, she recognises he's a very capable man. Her handling of the battle, I'll agree was not her finest hour, but her handling of Ramsay was/is. To turn his own tools against him shows a shrewd and just mind at work there. She could've had him flayed, but that would feel and make the Starks look bad. And her smile at the end, while she's walking away from the kennels. To me that's more than just a twisted pleasure, it's justice and knowing she's dealt it. *Aside from yelling 'zig zag you pillock!' there was nothing Sansa could've done for him. Even Jon's attempt at getting to Rickon was fool hardy in the extreme. He exposed himself to those same arrows. Why Ramsay didn't take advantage of that is pure plot.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 17:01:40 GMT
Where are you two seeing Jon using a Mormont shield? The only shield I saw him use was a Stark shield. Look at the photos WP posted. The moment is after Wum Wun, Tormund and Jon enter Winterfell and Ramsay is shooing arrows at Jon.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jun 20, 2016 17:04:24 GMT
Where are you two seeing Jon using a Mormont shield? The only shield I saw him use was a Stark shield. I posted it here, the first pic is when Jon approached Ramsay, the second is from inside the hall at Bear Island to show you the shield GoT uses for the Mormonts. It's def a Mormont shield, Jon holds it sideways. The thing I love about it - if it was intentional - is that it buys into our discussions that the Mormonts were up to something back in the day. They were shielding/protecting someone. tagging Some Pig No Doubt
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 17:23:36 GMT
Jon and Davos discussed the Pincer movement they suspected that Ramsay would use and they both knew how important it was to wait where they were with the trenches dug on either side of their army, but Jon's emotions got the best of him and he didn't wait for Ramsay's attack like they planned. They ran outside the trenches they had dug, so yes, he fell right into Ramsay's hands. Oh I think I see. What you're saying is the rest of the army had little choice but to follow Jon into the centre of the battle grounds after he went after Rickon, instead of hanging back and letting Ramsay attack them. I will say this though, I highly doubt Ramsay would've fallen victim to the trenches. He had more than enough men for a full on frontal attack. An attack that would've driven them back to nearly the woods, thus having Jon's own men fall into the trenches to be slaughtered.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jun 20, 2016 17:26:08 GMT
My thoughts on Sansa: I was rolling my eyes when she was whining to Jon after the war meeting. Why didn't she just speak up instead of accusing him of what, ignoring her or not letting her speak? And though I appreciate her realism (and softening the blow for us) about Rickon being as good as dead, where was her emotion about it? Why give Jon the stank eye at Winterfell instead of a bittersweet embrace? They got their freaking home back, where was the celebrating? Otherwise, I think the only explanation for her not telling Jon about the Vale Army is that she didn't know if they'd show up. But why chide him for not waiting for reinforcements without telling him there was a chance? Meh. The writers dropped a few balls there. Otherwise, it was a strong episode, I even liked the Mereen plot - except for the Yara/Dany fest. And we'll get down in the crypts next week. Gee, I wonder what might happen down there? j/k Lyanna as Jon's mom will be out of the bag. Whether they'll drop the R bomb or not, I guess it depends how much more trolling hey can give us this season.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 20, 2016 17:58:34 GMT
except for the Yara/Dany fest. Funny I thought Yara playing the L card on Dany was perfect. The dialogue was better between those 4 then it was with Tyrion and Dany. (the city is thriving --bang! really? #cheesy). I especially appreciated Yara picking on Dany's one weakness, her father and the Targ madness. Dany's comeback was quite good as well. The line about all our fathers were monsters, but we needn't be like them was, I thought rather touching. Also loved how Dany didn't know how to shake hands. That's actually quite fitting, since as a royal, no one but a lover or protector would've touched her. Mind you, all the gurl powah was getting a bit thick. Sheesh! is this GoT of an episode of Sex in the City?
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Post by Melifeather on Jun 20, 2016 18:07:32 GMT
Where are you two seeing Jon using a Mormont shield? The only shield I saw him use was a Stark shield. I posted it here, the first pic is when Jon approached Ramsay, the second is from inside the hall at Bear Island to show you the shield GoT uses for the Mormonts. It's def a Mormont shield, Jon holds it sideways. The thing I love about it - if it was intentional - is that it buys into our discussions that the Mormonts were up to something back in the day. They were shielding/protecting someone. tagging Some Pig No Doubt I mistook that for a Stark wolf head, but after a relook it is a different animal.
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Post by Melifeather on Jun 20, 2016 18:23:15 GMT
Where are you two seeing Jon using a Mormont shield? The only shield I saw him use was a Stark shield. I posted it here, the first pic is when Jon approached Ramsay, the second is from inside the hall at Bear Island to show you the shield GoT uses for the Mormonts. It's def a Mormont shield, Jon holds it sideways. The thing I love about it - if it was intentional - is that it buys into our discussions that the Mormonts were up to something back in the day. They were shielding/protecting someone. tagging Some Pig No Doubt Dany is the one with the memories of the carved log beams, so what would be the theory to place Jon there? As Jon's father? It could be a reason for why Jeor went to the Wall I suppose, but Jon is supposed to have more of the north in him and the Mormonts are Andals. Do you think the show deliberately chose the shield or are we supposed to imagine that it was brought there by someone strictly by chance, as in grabbed randomly from the battlefield?
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