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Post by Melifeather on Jul 20, 2016 11:56:32 GMT
I've begun listening to the audio version of The Eye of the World and am gobsmacked by how many elements have been lifted by GRRM that may help explain greenseers, Green Men, the Isle of Faces and God's Eye, dreamwalkers which may be similar to "flying", and most of all the wheel of time which I believe is a feature of ASOIAF even if it is never directly explained. This thread is a discussion of book one of a fourteen book series! Light! I thought GRRM's planned seven book series was expansive! Please join me and min in the discussion. I haven't finished the book yet whereas min is an old hand, so there is time for anyone reading this to begin reading and comment every time you find an instance that may apply to ASOIAF, or just to discuss The Eye of the World. Plot summary lifted from Wikipedia:The Eye of the World revolves around protagonists Rand al'Thor, Matrim (Mat) Cauthon, Perrin Aybara, Egwene al'Vere, and Nynaeve al'Meara, after their residence of 'Emond's Field' is unexpectedly attacked by Trollocs (the antagonist's soldiers) and a Myrddraal (the undead-like officer commanding the Trollocs) intent on capturing Rand, Mat, and Perrin. To save their village from further attacks, Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Egwene flee the village, accompanied by the Aes Sedai Moiraine Damodred, her Warder Al'Lan Mandragoran, and gleeman Thom Merrilin, and later joined by Wisdom Nynaeve al'Meara. Pursued by increasing numbers of Trollocs and Myrddraal, the travellers take refuge in the abandoned city of Shadar Logoth, where Mat is infected by the malevolent Mashadar. While escaping the city the travelers are separated; Rand, Mat, and Thom travel by boat to Whitebridge, where Thom is lost allowing Rand and Mat to escape a Myrddraal. In Caemlyn, Rand befriends an Ogier named Loial. Trying to catch a glimpse of the recently captured False Dragon, Rand befriends Elayne Trakand, heir apparent to the throne of Andor, and her brothers Gawyn Trakand and Galad Damodred. Rand is then taken before Queen Morgase and her Aes Sedai advisor, Elaida; and released without charge, in spite of Elaida's grave pronouncements regarding Rand. Egwene and Perrin are guided separately to Caemlyn by Elyas Machera, a man who can communicate telepathically with wolves and who claims that Perrin can do the same. The three run afoul of the Children of the Light, whereof Perrin kills two for the death of a wolf at their hands, and is sentenced to death. Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve rescue Egwene and Perrin, and all are reunited with Rand and Mat. Thereafter Moiraine determines that Mat must travel to Tar Valon, the Aes Sedai's center of power, to overcome the influence of Shadar Logoth. Loial warns Moiraine of a threat to the Eye of the World, a pool of Saidin untouched by the Dark One's influence, which is confirmed by vivid and disturbing dreams Mat, Rand, and Perrin have had. The Eye of the World is protected by Someshta (the Green Man) and contains one of the seven seals on the Dark One's prison, the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Telamon, and the Horn of Valere. At the civilized world's border, the group enters the Blight (the polluted region under the Dark One's control) to protect the Eye. After a pursuit they meet the Green Man and he reveals the Eye. The group is then confronted by the Forsaken Aginor and Balthamel. As battle ensues, Balthamel and the Green Man slay each other. Soon after, Rand defeats Aginor and uses the Eye to decimate the Trolloc army and defeat Ba'alzamon. As a result, Moiraine concludes that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but her opinion and all other details of the final battle are kept from all the male members of the group except Lan.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 21, 2016 10:00:17 GMT
Some of the elements are so striking. In the chapter I am listening to at the moment Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Moraine, the Warder, and the Ogre are in "the ways", which are hidden stone passages that also serve as a way to time travel and bring to mind the tunnels in ASOIAF taken by Gendel and Gorne. The Ogre is basically a giant and his ancestors are credited with building the ways under the direction of men tainted by the Dark One. Long distances can be completed in a matter of a day or two, but they are rarely used and falling under decay. The group is using the ways to get to the place where the Eye of the World is, which I suspect will end up being something akin to a greenseer.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 21, 2016 10:20:58 GMT
Other elements that really stand out are the rising up of False Dragons. The Dragon is supposed to be a savior figure, at least that is what I've gathered, but false ones rise up from time to time and have to be arrested. The three boys Rand, Mat and Perrin are bastards raised up as peasant farmer's children, but each of them has hidden gifts. Perrin can telepathically communicate with wolves, and all three receive prophetic dreams. From what I understand they are resurrected or reborn heroes that are destined to try to save the world from the Dark Other that wants to break time and stop the wheel.
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Post by min on Jul 21, 2016 10:35:36 GMT
I don't know that Rand is a bastard. He doesn't know his true lineage. His mother died giving birth on the battlefield and his father died as well. He's found by his father's loyalist and lives his life thinking that this is his true father and his wife (who also dies) are his parents. But they are foster parents who know his true background. He's basically hidden away. His foster father's sword is marked with the symbol of the Golden Crane; the significance of which Rand discovers later. wot.wikia.com/wiki/Malkieradded: More precisely, Ran's foster father and mother (who dies later but is never a character in the book) show up after the war with Rand and pass him off as their own child with nobody the wiser including Rand.
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Post by jnr on Jul 21, 2016 14:24:10 GMT
A simpler way to interpret Rand is as exactly the kind of super-cliched Chosen One protagonist that GRRM never wanted for his series.
-- GRRM
We can all apply GRRM's reasoning to Jon as we see fit.
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Post by min on Jul 21, 2016 15:07:46 GMT
We can all apply GRRM's reasoning to Jon as we see fit. Nobody would suggest otherwise. I don't know that there are any great secrets in the Wheel of Time to inform aSoIaF. Just a lot of coincidence. Same with Hyperion Cantos. I'm merely curious. If Rand has a counterpart in aSoIaF; it's Dany and the events in the prologue of the Eye of the World tell the story of the breaking of the world; something that could compare to the Great Civilization before the Dawn and Azor Ahai. I don't think there are any this equals that between these stories. It's an exercise in lateral thinking.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 21, 2016 16:06:46 GMT
I don't know that Rand is a bastard. You are quite right. It was a poor choice of word, but in my head I meant that his parents aren't who he thinks they are. A simpler way to interpret Rand is as exactly the kind of super-cliched Chosen One protagonist that GRRM never wanted for his series. The Eye of the World has striking similarities to Bran's story including elements that seem to echo greenseers, green men, weirwood groves, ogres/giants, a false spring, an all seeing eye, a wheel of time, tunnels under the ground to speed up travel, humans that communicate with wolves, a one true source referred to as the light, and a dark one/force. Obviously this is a book that has influenced parts of ASOIAF and supports my theory of a wheel of time at work. GRRM may never have any of the characters refer or acknowledge a wheel of time, but the way the events are unfolding seem to be evidence that it's something that GRRM is using. I don't think we'll find any character to be exactly the same, and while The Eye of the World is a critically acclaimed fantasy series, to me it doesn't quite reach GRRM's level of storytelling.
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Post by jnr on Jul 22, 2016 20:00:43 GMT
while The Eye of the World is a critically acclaimed fantasy series, to me it doesn't quite reach GRRM's level of storytelling Naturally. WoT epitomizes pre-ASOIAF fantasy, in the same way Tad Williams' series Memory Sorrow and Thorn did, David Eddings' Belgariad did, Star Wars did, etc. greenseers, green men, weirwood groves, ogres/giants, a false spring, an all seeing eye, a wheel of time, tunnels under the ground to speed up travel, humans that communicate with wolves, a one true source referred to as the light, and a dark one/force So many of these can be found in pre-WoT fantasy too, particularly the all-seeing eye (Sauron being a blatant instance), green men/giants (see also: Fangorn) and the god of light/good vs. the god of darkness/evil (in Tolkien, Eru and Morgoth, and which in ASOIAF, really only turns up in Melisandre's worldview -- GRRM's made it clear the existence of these gods is a very questionable matter). The wheel of time idea that is so very explicit in Wheel of Time (obviously) does seem to have influenced GRRM in certain ways, though he's a lot subtler about it -- except here: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/RigneyI agree with you that this is not just a hat-tip to a fellow writer, but a concept GRRM deliberately worked into his fiction at a deep level.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 22, 2016 20:06:55 GMT
while The Eye of the World is a critically acclaimed fantasy series, to me it doesn't quite reach GRRM's level of storytelling Naturally. WoT epitomizes pre-ASOIAF fantasy, in the same way Tad Williams' series Memory Sorrow and Thorn did, David Eddings' Belgariad did, Star Wars did, etc. greenseers, green men, weirwood groves, ogres/giants, a false spring, an all seeing eye, a wheel of time, tunnels under the ground to speed up travel, humans that communicate with wolves, a one true source referred to as the light, and a dark one/force So many of these can be found in pre-WoT fantasy too, particularly the all-seeing eye (Sauron being a blatant instance), green men/giants (see also: Fangorn) and the god of light/good vs. the god of darkness/evil (in Tolkien, Eru and Morgoth, and which in ASOIAF, really only turns up in Melisandre's worldview -- GRRM's made it clear the existence of these gods is a very questionable matter). The wheel of time idea that is so very explicit in Wheel of Time (obviously) does seem to have influenced GRRM in certain ways, though he's a lot subtler about it -- except here: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/RigneyI agree with you that this is not just a hat-tip to a fellow writer, but a concept GRRM deliberately worked into his fiction at a deep level. For one small moment I thought you were going to post this link: Feather Crystal
You have to read the very last part of that post. Which is my alter ego on Westeros.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 22, 2016 22:52:39 GMT
The Wheel Of Time does include much lore, myths, cultures and histories from the world and ages. Robert Jordan spread it out across his characters and his version of the world and existence. The protagonist and antagonist have several mythological or historical peoples attributed to them. And, as JNR was saying, other writers have reused these same lores in their own way in their own creations. I don't want to spoil anything for you so I will not go into details. But as you read/listen to the oncoming story line, you will find more and more similarities. I do think GRRM was influenced by Jordan's story along with the rest of his inspirations. Martin decided to one up the usual fantasy story. And, yes, I have read the entire tWoT series. Painstakingly.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 22, 2016 23:06:04 GMT
The Wheel Of Time does include much lore, myths, cultures and histories from the world and ages. Robert Jordan spread it out across his characters and his version of the world and existence. The protagonist and antagonist have several mythological or historical peoples attributed to them. And, as JNR was saying, other writers have reused these same lores in their own way in their own creations. I don't want to spoil anything for you so I will not go into details. But as you read/listen to the oncoming story line, you will find more and more similarities. I do think GRRM was influenced by Jordan's story along with the rest of his inspirations. Martin decided to one up the usual fantasy story. And, yes, I have read the entire tWoT series. Painstakingly. I should get copies of the books, but I'm more apt to get further along listening since I play it to and from work, and any long distance drive. The bad part is I don't get to see what the spelling of certain words are, or to go over a particular passage, or search keywords....OK, I've talked myself into looking for ebook versions! HAR! Since you have read the books, I invite you to share any parallels between the first book and GRRm's series. I have less than 2 hours left of The Eye of the World, so anything from this book is OK by me to discuss. I'm at the part where they reached the Eye and are talking to the green man.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 23, 2016 14:08:39 GMT
OK. I've completed this book. Spoil away! I'm downloading book two The Great Hunt.
So, in this book Rand channels the light to kill Mordane (spelling?) and uses it like a sword to sever the black (umbilical?) power cord to destroy him. The earth opened and swallowed Mordane and his trollock army, half men, and shades. Rand falls himself and lands on solid rock. When he comes to he runs down the mountain to find his friends and is told the eye of the world is gone. What's left are a hole where the "water" was and crystals are exposed. Somehow a box containing a great horn with ruins is found which can call the great heroes from the grave. Will the horn of winter in GRRM's story turn out to have the same ability? Snowfyre's thread suggests that the horn that wakes the sleepers is a wolf howl, and while I agree with that I think there is also a literal horn that will wake the dead from the Age of Heroes to coincide with Jordan's horn. What do you all think? Also, do you think that the source of light power and the lighted umbilical cord attached to Rand was drawing from the eye of the world? If so, how could the Isle of Faces in Gods Eye be a similar source of power?
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 27, 2016 11:21:36 GMT
In the beginning of The Great Hunt there's a horn that can raise an army of dead heroes, and that the heroes will follow whoever blows the horn. Doesn't matter if the blower is on the side of light or darkness. This goes along with Euron's dragonhorn. Will we see Dany's dragons follow Euron just because he has a dragon-binding horn?
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 31, 2016 20:32:51 GMT
Some very noticeable similarities between The Great Hunt and ASOIAF is the aspect of a dragon being reborn, and the dragon is expected to break the wheel which breaks the world, and a new world will be rebuilt...but, it sounds like the dragon reborn has to die afterward, because his power would become a threat to the new world. There is also portal stones that can be used to travel between worlds, but there is only one real world. The alternate worlds are alternate realities and pale in comparison to the real world. They're more like "possible" worlds.
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Post by Melifeather on Oct 11, 2016 1:06:03 GMT
Had put this aside for awhile, but now I'm back at it. I finished book two, The Hunt, and am into book three, The Dragon Reborn. Just astounded how many phrases and words have been lifted (kind word) stolen (realistic word) by GRRM, including a new name: the Neverborn. This book series is obviously a huge influence on ASOIAF.
One of the more startling ideas put forth by Robert Jordan is that wolves live half in the real world and half in the dream world, and the people who can talk to wolves can also travel in this dream world when they are asleep. There are certain "dark friends" who can see these wolf-dream walkers, and they can harm you so you'd better run.
Channeling is a big feature of Eis Sedai (spelling) with women embracing the power and men struggling to wrest control over it. Still looking for parallels on that one.
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