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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 7:11:26 GMT
Petyr has Bael in Baelish, but he doesn't sing or play the harp, but he did take the Lord of Winterfell 's daughter and she went willingly. But imo if you add all the other tales together it makes a compelling argument that Jon!s father is a descendant of the Nights King.Not sure about the other stories you mention; but there is no way to prove or disprove this statement. Ned could just as easily be descended from the NK as much as someone without the Stark name. Roose Bolton for that matter. LOL It's interesting that Old Nan names the Boltons in the story of the NK but then tells Bran that it was a Stark named Brandon for all she knew just to amuse him. Old Nan's stories might also be altered in the telling over time. The NK chases the woman he sees from the Wall, hunting her until he catches her. Something that Ramsey does with women in a kind of twisted fairy tale version. "Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always say. "Some say he was a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was, he was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Maybe he slept in this very bed, in this very room." No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight.
Since Jon and Ramsey both carry the bastard name Snow; they are in a sense brothers. There is even a chance that the NK was a fostered at Winterfell since this is a strong tradition. The pledge to protect is a strong theme and Jon was named after Jon Arryn who went to war rather than break his pledge to protect Ned. Even Theon says he is a Stark at last at Ramsey's wedding in the godswood. Since it appears that Bran was observing the proceedings from the weirwood and he is amused according to Theon; this could be an inversion; something that Bran changed at some point. The old gods don't like it when you kill their mother and brother after giving hospitality rights and assurances of safety. Ramsey seems the perfect inversion to Jon, the dark and the light, skinflayer and skinchanger. Both bastards of Winterfell, with Ramsey usurping that position from Jon and flaunting it in the Pink Letter. "Let them be brothers." - Ned... There are all kinds of brotherhoods.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 10:58:05 GMT
Petyr has Bael in Baelish, but he doesn't sing or play the harp, but he did take the Lord of Winterfell 's daughter and she went willingly. But imo if you add all the other tales together it makes a compelling argument that Jon!s father is a descendant of the Nights King.Not sure about the other stories you mention; but there is no way to prove or disprove this statement. Ned could just as easily be descended from the NK as much as someone without the Stark name. Roose Bolton for that matter. LOL It's interesting that Old Nan names the Boltons in the story of the NK but then tells Bran that it was a Stark named Brandon for all she knew just to amuse him. Old Nan's stories might also be altered in the telling over time. The NK chases the woman he sees from the Wall, hunting her until he catches her. Something that Ramsey does with women in a kind of twisted fairy tale version. "Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always say. "Some say he was a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was, he was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Maybe he slept in this very bed, in this very room." No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight.
Since Jon and Ramsey both carry the bastard name Snow; they are in a sense brothers. There is even a chance that the NK was a fostered at Winterfell since this is a strong tradition. The pledge to protect is a strong theme and Jon was named after Jon Arryn who went to war rather than break his pledge to protect Ned. Even Theon says he is a Stark at last at Ramsey's wedding in the godswood. Since it appears that Bran was observing the proceedings from the weirwood and he is amused according to Theon; this could be an inversion; something that Bran changed at some point. The old gods don't like it when you kill their mother and brother after giving hospitality rights and assurances of safety. Ramsey seems the perfect inversion to Jon, the dark and the light, skinflayer and skinchanger. Both bastards of Winterfell, with Ramsey usurping that position from Jon and flaunting it in the Pink Letter. "Let them be brothers." - Ned... There are all kinds of brotherhoods. min you are so good at this! Your post reads like a prophecy! Interesting that Old Nan would name the Night's King "Brandon" and "the brother of the man who brought him down". If the man that brought him down was the Lord of Winterfell, then doesn't that make the current Starks descendants of the man that brought down the Night's King? I know that last sentence was a little redundant, but I'm trying to work the puzzle through logically. The Night's King and the Lord of Winterfell were brothers instead of father and son. The bastard of Winterfell killed his father. The wildlings are people who refused to kneel, and I'm thinking they refused to kneel to the bastard. Who was the bastard? The Night's King or the Lord of Winterfell? Jon and Ramsay are both bastards, as you've already pointed out and I agree they're inversions of each other, and I think more answers can be found by examining the inversions between them.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 26, 2016 11:49:03 GMT
On the third page in less than 24 hours! I saw this thread only this morning so I have reading to do.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 13:19:44 GMT
If the man that brought him down was the Lord of Winterfell, then doesn't that make the current Starks descendants of the man that brought down the Night's King? I'm going to say yes to that - the family honor restored! Jon won't go down in infamy; his name and deeds won't be erased from memory. He's not the LC anymore but he might end up proclaimed the Lord of Winterfell and the King in the North. Bran loves Jon. On another note: skinflaying and wearing a human skin is an inversion of Varamyr's practices - a mockery and an abomination of the worst kind. Ramsey is familiar with the tales of the Night Fort. I would even say that they appeal to his character. He is highly amused by the story of the Rat King at his wedding feast. Ramsey has certainly bent Theon to his will and it won't surprise me if he ends up at the Night Fort acting out some of Old Nan's tales. Jon, Bran and Arya all have heroes they would like to emulate from the histories. Who does Ramsey admire? LOL! This could tie into the events at the ToJ and what Bran knows about Jon's lineage.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 16:27:09 GMT
”No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice, “now it ends.” Constrast the above statement at the ToJ and Bran's statement at the Night Fort: No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. Arthur Dayne - It begins here... Ned Stark - No, it ends here ... Bran - No, (it doesn't end like this)
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 16:37:45 GMT
If the man that brought him down was the Lord of Winterfell, then doesn't that make the current Starks descendants of the man that brought down the Night's King? I'm going to say yes to that - the family honor restored! Jon won't go down in infamy; his name and deeds won't be erased from memory. He's not the LC anymore but he might end up proclaimed the Lord of Winterfell and the King in the North. Bran loves Jon. On another note: skinflaying and wearing a human skin is an inversion of Varamyr's practices - a mockery and an abomination of the worst kind. Ramsey is familiar with the tales of the Night Fort. I would even say they appeal to his character. He is highly amused by the story of the Rat King at his wedding feast. Ramsey has certainly bent Theon to his will and it won't surprise me if he ends up at the Night Fort acting out some of Old Nan's tales. This could tie into the events at the ToJ and what Bran knows about Jon's lineage. Maybe it's my contrary nature, but what if the Night's King was Brandon Bolton making the Lord of Winterfell a Bolton bastard on a Stark mother? There's some type of conflict between the Bolton's and Starks and having a Bolton bastard end up inheriting Winterfell as a legitimized Stark might be where this all started.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 16:38:56 GMT
On the third page in less than 24 hours! I saw this thread only this morning so I have reading to do. Jump right in! This has been such an interesting discussion between min and I, but we would love to have you join us!
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 16:52:35 GMT
I'm going to say yes to that - the family honor restored! Jon won't go down in infamy; his name and deeds won't be erased from memory. He's not the LC anymore but he might end up proclaimed the Lord of Winterfell and the King in the North. Bran loves Jon. On another note: skinflaying and wearing a human skin is an inversion of Varamyr's practices - a mockery and an abomination of the worst kind. Ramsey is familiar with the tales of the Night Fort. I would even say they appeal to his character. He is highly amused by the story of the Rat King at his wedding feast. Ramsey has certainly bent Theon to his will and it won't surprise me if he ends up at the Night Fort acting out some of Old Nan's tales. This could tie into the events at the ToJ and what Bran knows about Jon's lineage. Maybe it's my contrary nature, but what if the Night's King was Brandon Bolton making the Lord of Winterfell a Bolton bastard on a Stark mother? There's some type of conflict between the Bolton's and Starks and having a Bolton bastard end up inheriting Winterfell as a legitimized Stark might be where this all started. It's always a possibility but without more information about the original conflict; it's hard to say. Another mystery. They are things that you can weigh as probabilities against other probabilities.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 16:54:20 GMT
On the third page in less than 24 hours! I saw this thread only this morning so I have reading to do. Jump right in! This has been such an interesting discussion between min and I, but we would love to have you join us! Yes! I start to worry when I hear crickets. LOL I assume everyone is busy or working on an important essay or other....
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 16:58:31 GMT
Maybe it's my contrary nature, but what if the Night's King was Brandon Bolton making the Lord of Winterfell a Bolton bastard on a Stark mother? There's some type of conflict between the Bolton's and Starks and having a Bolton bastard end up inheriting Winterfell as a legitimized Stark might be where this all started. It's always a possibility but without more information about the original conflict; it's hard to say. Another mystery. They are things that you can weigh as probabilities against other probabilities. After I posted it, it dawned on me that that is exactly what the mummer's show is doing...at least that is the speculation that Sansa Stark is pregnant with Ramsay's child. A Bolton bastard that could be a legitimized Stark someday.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 17:23:37 GMT
It's always a possibility but without more information about the original conflict; it's hard to say. Another mystery. They are things that you can weigh as probabilities against other probabilities. After I posted it, it dawned on me that that is exactly what the mummer's show is doing...at least that is the speculation that Sansa Stark is pregnant with Ramsay's child. A Bolton bastard that could be a legitimized Stark someday. Sorry, have to take mom to appointment. Catch up with you later!
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 21:17:47 GMT
aDwD - Melisandre
The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.
This is Melisandre's recollection of the transforming event in her life, when she was changed from a slave girl to the red priestess. She herself is filled with fire; she must drink it in, swallow it down and keep doing so. The ruby at her throat is suggestive that this is the source of her power; or something that connects her to the source and placed such as it is; at her throat reinforces the idea that she must swallow down the fire.
In contrast to rubies; we have sapphire eyes, the blue eyes of death. Sapphires and rubies are basically the same material, corundum but with different inclusions to make them rubies or sapphires. They are rocks (just like that rock on your wife's finger). In other words made with tremendous pressures and heat. In Martin's world sapphires and rubies represent ice and fire magic but they are rocks just the same.
Consider Bran's description of the Wall from his coma dream:
He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal...
And these descriptions from Bran from aSoS following his encounter with Jon before entering the Night Fort:
The Wall could look like stone, all grey and pitted, but then the clouds would break and the sun would hit it differently, and all at once it would transform, and stand there white and blue and glittering. It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.
He remembered Maester Luwin saying the Nightfort was the only castle where the steps had been cut from the ice of the wall itself. Or maybe it had been Uncle Benjen. The newer castles had wooden steps, or stone ones, or long ramps of earth and gravel. Ice is too treacherous. It was his uncle who'd told him that. He said the outer surface of the Wall wept icy tears sometimes, though the core inside stayed frozen hard as rock. The steps must have melted and refrozen a thousand times since the last black brothers left the castle, and every time they did they shrunk a little and got smoother and rounder and more treacherous.
And smaller. It's almost like the Wall was swallowing them back into itself.
So here it is... The Wall consumes itself like the Orobouros swallowing it's own tail. The Wall is the ice dragon treacherous to climb; it feeds on death if you are foolhardy enough to climb it's rotten ice.
"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o’ blood." - Ygritte
Old Nan says it's the end of the earth. Or as far as you can go if you encounter a massive ice sheet. The Wall is the leading edge, what remains of the ice sheet; fixed to the earth. The Wall is a massive sapphire containing the killing cold it draws to itself and devours. It swallows it's own tail.
"If the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out." Qhorin Halfhand.
The Wall wasn't raised... magic was applied to it; so it would devour the ice sheet behind it and draw the killing cold to itself. The Night's Watch continued to add to it. This is how the season's became unbalanced with long summers and winters. The more the Wall grew in size; the more the seasons were unbalanced. The Wall absorbs too much ice; melting the North when it should remain cool ending in long summers and then drawing down the cold to swing the climate the other way for the long winters.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 21:21:59 GMT
It's always a possibility but without more information about the original conflict; it's hard to say. Another mystery. They are things that you can weigh as probabilities against other probabilities. After I posted it, it dawned on me that that is exactly what the mummer's show is doing...at least that is the speculation that Sansa Stark is pregnant with Ramsay's child. A Bolton bastard that could be a legitimized Stark someday. Sure. We don't know how Baelish will use her to consolidate his power. Her position is weak and he wants her himself. Eventually, they'll end up at Winterfell and she'll throw the stone giant off a tower. LOL
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 22:15:34 GMT
aDwD - Melisandre
The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.
This is Melisandre's recollection of the transforming event in her life, when she was changed from a slave girl to the red priestess. She herself is filled with fire; she must drink it in, swallow it down and keep doing so. The ruby at her throat is suggestive that this is the source of her power; or something that connects her to the source and placed such as it is; at her throat reinforces the idea that she must swallow down the fire.
You posted the above...sorry, I'm doing the best I can on my phone.
Thoros described what he did to Beric as blowing fire down his throat, and Beric awoke to the taste of ashes in his mouth.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 23:15:47 GMT
aDwD - Melisandre The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in. This is Melisandre's recollection of the transforming event in her life, when she was changed from a slave girl to the red priestess. She herself is filled with fire; she must drink it in, swallow it down and keep doing so. The ruby at her throat is suggestive that this is the source of her power; or something that connects her to the source and placed such as it is; at her throat reinforces the idea that she must swallow down the fire. You posted the above...sorry, I'm doing the best I can on my phone. Thoros described what he did to Beric as blowing fire down his throat, and Beric awoke to the taste of ashes in his mouth. It's another means for consuming I suppose and Beric's and Thoros' blood does set a sword on fire. Whether it goes into the lungs or the belly first; it still has to pass the throat. Same with the ice wights. From the lungs to the heart to the body. Mel specifically says she drinks it down, swallows it. I don't see Thoros with a ruby but then again he's not shadowbinder class. Melisandre drinks from the cup of fire.
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