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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 29, 2016 20:03:37 GMT
I am spinning off of some things that min has brought up in the other Fire/Ice thread and the idea of polarity reversal from the current Heresy thread. My head is swarming with associations and I need to get some of them out - as this is nowhere near a developed theory, please jump in with input. Please forgive the psychotic ramblings, I am brain-dumping. 1: Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, a nd asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon. Bare her breast, singular, one of two. Qartheen women bare only their left breast - the one atop the heart.
2. He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.
One moon, singular, one of two. Round, pale, female...like a breast. 3. Missy's Teats: pair of grassy hills in the disputed border area between Stone Hedge and Raventree Hall in the Riverlands. The hills resemble women's breasts, so they became known as the Teats or the Mother's Teats. Mother of Mountains in Vaes Dothrak. What do mothers do? They nurse their children at their breast. Womb of the World - the lake beneath the Mother of Mountains: deep, dark, cold, reported to have no bottom. CRATER LAKE. 4. "When the mountains blow in the air like leaves": ASH. 5. "while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon": ERUPTION COLUMN. 6. Slaves of Valyria toiling in the mines, the Fourteen Flames. The Doom, of course. Hot springs in Winterfell. The destruction of Hardhome: The homes of the inhabitants of Hardhome were said to have burned with flames so high and hot that the watchers on the Wall far to the south thought that the sun was rising in from the north. Afterwards, ashes rained down on the haunted forest and the Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders and a ship sent by the Night's Watch to investigate reported only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones. Hammer of the Waters: the greenseers attempt to break Westeros in two; at Moat Cailin, great blocks of basalt thrown about like children's toys. Basalt: Basalt is a common extrusive igneous [volcanic] rock formed from the rapid cooling of basaltic lava exposed at or very near the surface of a planet or moon. 7. Myth of peoples that sacrificed humans to the volcano - Inca/Mayan, Polynesian. Great honor to be chosen as sacrifice. Hindu Yadnya Kasada ceremony, Mt. Bromo, Java: offerings to the volcano based on ancient legend of child sacrifice. Tenggerese temples made of black stone, Balinese made of red brick. Is R'hllor a vulcan god? 8. 1980: Mt. St Helens eruption. Interesting because MSH previously erupted in the middle ages (~1480) with a blast 5x size of 1980. 1992 [year GRRM began AGOT]: Massive eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in Phillipines. Effects felt globally due to scale. Eruption was preceded by a nearby earthquake in 1990. Eruption column over 15 miles high. The ash cloud from the volcano covered an area of some 125,000 km2 (48,000 sq mi), bringing total darkness to much of central Luzon. Almost all of the island received some ash fall, which formed a heavy, rain-saturated snow-like blanket. 9. "Hinges of the World": The Wall. Asshai. Valyria. Vaes Dothrak? Etc. All volcanic hotspots?
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Post by min on Jul 29, 2016 20:45:07 GMT
Wow! There are some really complex ideas here needing some deep thinking. I will be finished at Wessteros soon and will contribute ASAP.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 29, 2016 22:34:02 GMT
LmL has suggested that the Long Night was caused after a cataclysmic event sent debris up into the atmosphere, blocking out the sun, but a climate scientist actually took the time to debunk LmL's theory stating that while a large meteorite may cause some debris, it would clear up within a year or two and not a generation long darkness. I am unsure if he included a volcano in his theory though. The story about the Others was created from the Children's point of view. The Others are not just one race, and their identity was different with each wave of human migration. When the First Men arrived in Westeros, they were the Others. When the Andals arrived, they were the Others. And when the white walkers attacked humans, they became known as the Others too. My own thoughts are that the three forgings were three attempts by the Children to slay human's: 1) Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke
I think the first "sword" was the hammer of waters...the sword was tempered in water, but the land bridge - the Arm of Dorne - did break and wash away. 2) He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.
The second "sword" tempered in the heart of a lion was the creation of white walkers. The Children decided to fight back. They realized that they were the lions in the forest and should not run when they were the ones that had powerful magic that could be used to make weapons. 3) The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon.The third sword was the sacrifice of one of the moons: Nissa Nissa. The greenseers conjured the comet that struck the moon, sending meteors down to Westeros to fall on and destroy nearly all human life. The fiery falling meteors looked like they were carrying burning swords, and thus were the first Night's Watch riding out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. The word "dawn" just means an ending to the darkness, and both words are meant to symbolize a period of time and not literal day and night. That being said I do not discount the theory that there were volcanoes. The description of the destruction at both Hardhome and Valyria sound like volcanoes to me too. Even Melisandre's description of the fire inside her sounds like a lava flow. I like min 's description of how the Wall was built, devouring the killing cold, snow and ice. The inversion of the ouroboros though has already caused the Wall to begin expelling the killing cold, and it is slowly whirling outward as a blizzard. If the Wall is indeed already being dismantled, then I wonder if the Doom of Valyria was a similar process? We're not given any details that confirm what happened, but I suspect a connection to the Faceless Men who were once Valyrian slaves, and who, it is said, brought the first "gift" of death to the slavers. It sounds like a little thing in comparison: the death of one slaver versus the Doom. But it likely only took one person to open the ward on the Wall that turned the ouroboros inside out. One person caused the butterfly effect.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 29, 2016 23:49:37 GMT
Even Melisandre's description of the fire inside her sounds like a lava flow. Funny you should say that. Recall the show's choice of dress for her and how it changed each season - her scarlet red dress got darker as she got closer to the Wall (which would make sense if the North houses a dormant volcano that is essentially her "source" of magic like in Asshai), until it was so deep blood red it was almost black. Then while she was torching Shireen, it began to....glow. Note the patterning: scarlet cracks and whorls on a near-black background. Sortof like: or
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Post by min on Jul 30, 2016 0:16:40 GMT
OH MY GOD!
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 2:31:55 GMT
I'm just going to keep babbling here, pardon me. The Gods Eye is the largest lake of the Seven Kingdoms, located south of the Trident and west of the kingsroad in the southern riverlands. At its center is a lone island, the Isle of Faces, which was where the Pact between the children of the forest and the First Men was created. The warm water of the Gods Eye is blue and green. Singers and storytellers tell the tale of the Green King of the Gods Eye. The Green King is one of the many legendary First Men heroes of the riverlands, whose tales date back to the Age of Heroes. He ruled the great lake of the region, the Gods Eye. Wizard Island - a small conical island in Crater Lake, Oregon. Wizard Island was created after Mount Mazama, a large stratovolcano, erupted violently approximately 7,700 years ago, forming its caldera which now contains Crater Lake. Following the cataclysmic caldera-forming eruption, which left a hole about 4,000 feet (1,200 m) deep where the mountain had once stood, a series of smaller lava eruptions over the next several hundred years formed later created a central platform - Wizard Island, which rises over 2,700 feet (820 m) above the lowest point on the caldera floor and the deepest point in the lake, and about 750 above lake surface level. The cone is capped by a volcanic crater about 500 feet (150 m) wide and 100 feet (30 m) deep. The crater was named the "Witches Cauldron". Crater Lake is the deepest in the United States/Western Hemisphere and is famous for its deep blue color and water clarity. Crater Lake is also known for the " Old Man of the Lake", a full-sized tree which is now a stump that has been bobbing vertically in the lake for over a century. The low temperature of the water has slowed the decomposition of the wood, hence the longevity of the bobbing tree. Some hydrothermal activity remains along the lake floor, suggesting that at some time in the future Mazama may erupt once again.
The Klamath tribe of Native Americans, whose ancestors may have witnessed the collapse of Mount Mazama and the formation of Crater Lake, have long regarded the lake as a sacred site. Their legends tell of a battle between the sky god Skell and the god of the underworld Llao. Mount Mazama was destroyed in the battle, creating Crater Lake . The Klamath people used Crater Lake in vision quests, which often involved climbing the caldera walls and other dangerous tasks. Those who were successful in such quests were often regarded as having more spiritual powers. The tribe still holds Crater Lake in high regard as a spiritual site. Wizard Island in Crater Lake: Map showing the God's Eye and Isle of Faces:
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 2:54:28 GMT
As I said over on W, the idea of the Long Night causing the creation of Valyria is something that struck me as possible. Martin is on record saying the cause of the seasons being so long is magical. With that in mind and taking on board that even though the seasons are unnaturally long, they are however balanced. Time and again we read that a long summer means a long winter. Everyone expects to be able to get at least 2 to 3 harvests in during the autumn, so that tells us there is a consistency in how short the transitional seasons are. My point being that their is balance, it's just exaggerated how long the seasons last.
The Long Night is probably the first time the seasons went off kilter. A winter that lasted a generation is a huge expenditure of magic from the Ice lot. That would need to be balanced some how, so why not a large deposit of Fire? Valyria existed long before man got involved there. Hardhome did as well. The dichotomy is furthered in Winterfell, a cold, northern compound that is heated by the earth's water. Where there are hot springs, there is volcanic activity. Not to mention the name itself Winter Fell there.
Basically I'm saying either Ice created it's own enemy in the form of volcanic places on Planetos. Or, conversely, these Fire places grew large enough to power up the Ice side of things. It occurs to me that the latter could also work because Mel is more powerful at the Wall, meaning one type of magic may be feeding into (off of?) the other.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 2:55:26 GMT
An excerpt from the final paragraph of BC's beloved 1993 synopsis:
The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.
What is a common slang term for the center of a volcano? The HEART.
Life itself in the balance, at WinterFELL.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 3:19:34 GMT
A subglacial volcano, also known as a glaciovolcano, is a volcanic form produced by subglacial eruptions or eruptions beneath the surface of a glacier or ice sheet which is then melted into a lake by the rising lava. Today they are most common in Iceland and Antarctica; older formations of this type are found also in British Columbia and Yukon Territory, Canada. During the eruption, the heat of the lava from the subglacial volcano melts the overlying ice. The water quickly cools the lava, resulting in pillow lava shapes similar to those of underwater volcanoes. When the pillow lavas break off and roll down the volcano slopes, pillow breccia, tuff breccia, and hyaloclastite form. The meltwater may be released from below the ice as happened in Iceland in 1996 when the Grímsvötn caldera erupted, melting 3 km3 of ice and giving rise to a large glacial lake outburst flood. The shape of subglacial volcanoes tends to be quite characteristic and unusual, with a flattened top and steep sides supported against collapse by the pressure of the surrounding ice and meltwater. If the volcano eventually melts completely through the ice layer, then horizontal lava flows are deposited, and the top of the volcano assumes a nearly level form. However, if significant amounts of lava are later erupted subaerially, then the volcano may assume a more conventional shape. A tuya is a type of distinctive, flat-topped, steep-sided volcano formed when lava erupts through a thick glacier or ice sheet. They are somewhat rare worldwide, being confined to regions which were covered by glaciers and had active volcanism during the same period. A volcanic mesa near Santa Fe, New Mexico, known in English as Black Mesa and resembling a tuya, is known in Tewa as Tu-yo. Subglacial eruptions often cause jökulhlaups or great floods of water. During the ice ages, such floods from Lake Missoula were estimated to have discharges exceeding 17 × 106 m³/s (4.5 × 109 gal/s) and covered a third of eastern Washington state. Sonia Esperanca, program director in the National Science Foundation commented on the danger of subglacial volcanos: "When an ice-covered volcano erupts, the interplay among molten magma, ice and meltwater can have catastrophic results."
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 14:44:06 GMT
The shape of subglacial volcanoes tends to be quite characteristic and unusual, with a flattened top and steep sides supported against collapse by the pressure of the surrounding ice and meltwater. If the volcano eventually melts completely through the ice layer, then horizontal lava flows are deposited, and the top of the volcano assumes a nearly level form. However, if significant amounts of lava are later erupted subaerially, then the volcano may assume a more conventional shape. So that's how the Fist of the FM must have formed. A tuya is a type of distinctive, flat-topped, steep-sided volcano formed when lava erupts through a thick glacier or ice sheet. They are somewhat rare worldwide, being confined to regions which were covered by glaciers and had active volcanism during the same period. A volcanic mesa near Santa Fe, New Mexico, known in English as Black Mesa and resembling a tuya, is known in Tewa as Tu-yo. And this is Drogon's lair.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 30, 2016 15:47:06 GMT
min's explanation about how the Wall was built and how it effected the seasons makes sense to me even if I lack in scientific knowledge. The large wall of ice consumes ice magic, drawing it to itself. It draws the cool air towards it, pulling warmer air in from the south in it's wake, thus the extended summer. At the same time it is pulling cold air from the north until there is so much cold air that it forces the warmer air south again, thus the extended winter. In this way the Wall "breathes".
When the Wall was first built, it had a lot of catching up to do. It drew all the cold air to it and at the same time it pulled so hard that a rush of warmth was brought north. A movement like that would cause a great gust of air that could in theory feed a very large flame. Thus, the creation of the Wall fed the flames of the Valyrian volcanoes.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 17:03:02 GMT
When the Wall was first built, it had a lot of catching up to do. It drew all the cold air to it and at the same time it pulled so hard that a rush of warmth was brought north. A movement like that would cause a great gust of air that could in theory feed a very large flame. Thus, the creation of the Wall fed the flames of the Valyrian volcanoes. While I like this very much, it doesn't account for the first Long Night. How did the Ice lot manage to have a winter that lasted a generation? I think your explanation of the cold drawing the warmth up and creating large flames elsewhere make sense though. So perhaps it is not the Wall that created the volcanic flames of Valyria, but it is what's sustaining the smoking remains there. And the hot springs of Winterfell.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 17:22:07 GMT
So that's how the Fist of the FM must have formed. Exactly! Or perhaps even the "base" of the Wall itself! And this is Drogon's lair. ?Que? Not following. Given that Black Mesa is in George's neck of the woods, I thought he might have drawn some inspiration for the wall/taking the Black, etc. A melding of Black Mesa with Hadrian's Wall & the Black Watch, etc. When the Wall was first built Now that I'm looking at the volcanic angle, I'm wondering if the Wall wasn't "built" by the NW as much as "expanded". IMO the foundation of the wall already existed or was created during the Long Night - which makes sense if you think about a supervolcano erupting or mass meteoric impact causing a volcano to erupt and all the bad climate juju that follows. Shifting tectonics and lava flows/lahars cause the formation of this table-like shelf base, and the NW took advantage of opportunity and built it up over time. I think this resolves a couple of things: first, the contradiction of timeline regarding the raising of the Wall - some accounts hint that its existence predates the Long Night, while others indicate that the Wall was raised during the Age of Heroes. (Or something like that, I have two kids running around screaming and "Bunnicula" on top volume in the background, I can't even think right now.) If, due to geological events, it was technically both, problem solved. Second, if the base of the Wall was formed via some cataclysmic event that would have logically caused widescale death, that ties into Ygritte's assertation that the Wall was built with blood. The old races like CotF may have been able to retreat underground and survive (think tiny mammals during the dinosaur extinction events), but the humans/First Men would have had a very difficult time indeed. Not discounting at all at the Wall has magical properties or that it "breathes" cold - all glaciers advance and retreat, after all - but I suppose I'm looking at from the less magical/legendary angle. Now that I'm examining some of the topography and natural structures of Westeros, I really do think that the continent is on the western edge of a ring of fire. As various curves in the link blow and do their thing, they 'devour' part of the circle...but then, after they reshape and even rebuild the landscape in a different way (by creating shelves or islands or lakes, etc), the circle regenerates itself. The ouroboros. The wheel.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 30, 2016 17:30:37 GMT
When the Wall was first built, it had a lot of catching up to do. It drew all the cold air to it and at the same time it pulled so hard that a rush of warmth was brought north. A movement like that would cause a great gust of air that could in theory feed a very large flame. Thus, the creation of the Wall fed the flames of the Valyrian volcanoes. While I like this very much, it doesn't account for the first Long Night. How did the Ice lot manage to have a winter that lasted a generation? I think your explanation of the cold drawing the warmth up and creating large flames elsewhere make sense though. So perhaps it is not the Wall that created the volcanic flames of Valyria, but it is what's sustaining the smoking remains there. And the hot springs of Winterfell. You misunderstood me. First the Long Night, then the creation of the Wall. The creation of the Wall would have consumed all the cold air, snow, and ice, and as it sucked all that cold air, warm air filled it's wake. So as the Wall was being built, that whoosh...an extreme draft, like being pulled up a chimney...imagine Westeros as the chimney with the Wall at the top pulling the cold air to it, and the south is the base where the fire is. The air being drawn up the chimney brings the fire to a blaze down below.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 30, 2016 17:37:56 GMT
Not discounting at all at the Wall has magical properties or that it "breathes" cold - all glaciers advance and retreat, after all - but I suppose I'm looking at from the less magical/legendary angle. Now that I'm examining some of the topography and natural structures of Westeros, I really do think that the continent is on the western edge of a ring of fire. As various curves in the link blow and do their thing, they 'devour' part of the circle...but then, after they reshape and even rebuild the landscape in a different way (by creating shelves or islands or lakes, etc), the circle regenerates itself. The ouroboros. The wheel. The Wall was breathing. When it inhaled it was summer, when it exhaled it was winter. Back and forth, back and forth, but with each inhale of cold air it grew larger. The extreme size of it is why it's so dangerous, because even though it's consuming the cold, when it exhaled this last time there was so much cold drawn to it, it made the cold much more powerful. And if the ouroboros is indeed consuming itself until it's inside out, it's going to reverse the magic that built it, so that instead of consuming the cold it will expel the cold, and that is exactly what it seems like it is doing. There's a blizzard happening when we left off at the end of Dance. I know some readers think it's emanating out of Winterfell, and maybe it is, but maybe it also just means that there are tunnels underground from the Wall to Winterfell and the cold air that is being expelled is traveling along the tunnels and is able to escape at Winterfell, because that is where the warding was removed. Sorry for the long run on sentence, but it is one fluid thought. There is a big exception here, however, and that is if the air is being expelled where the warding is removed, then shouldn't it be expelling out of the tunnel cut out of the Wall at Castle Black? If the tunnel at Castle Black is not expelling cold air, then it should be evidence that the ward is still holding...at least for now.
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