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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 3, 2016 18:33:21 GMT
True dreams are related to the past, the future and the truth. These are the fears that Bran has to overcome. Notice that GRRM doesn't say: the past, the present, the future. He says the past, the future and the truth. So it's entirely possible that when Bran thinks he may have dreamed of Jon; it was in the future. Nice catch there! If you can see the future in your dreams then it is possible that Bran dreamed he communicated with Ghost and Jon at a future date. Sort of like a greendream that Jojen has. This links in with why future Bran would choose this dream in order to communicate with Jon. In essence, Bran is not changing the future with his time travelling, he is closing loops. If you can see what I mean? But I still like my explanation better, I think futureBran tapped into Bran in the crypts in order to reach Ghost in a wolf dream that futureBran remembers having, where he sensed Jon was in Ghost at the same time that pastBran was in Summer. Remember in that wolf dream of Jon's it is Ghost that is reaching out for his siblings. That howl is a call to his brothers and sisters and to their partners as well by default. Bran was able to answer it because he too was in a wolf dream at the time. Arya was not, she was in the Godswood at the time. But she still heard the howl. And now Bran is acting the part of the 3EC for Jon. Who then finds out that he is warg from the Halfhand but has no one to guide him. So we don't see him consciously developing that skill with Ghost. To add to this up until the his last chapter in Dance, Jon has not had the opportunity to do so either. Bran discovers he can slip his skin in the crypts of WF, where it is so dark he can't see the hand in front of his face. Arya discovers she can slip her skin while she is blind. Jon has never had a period where he's blind in any sense yet. Now that he is either grievously hurt and in a possible coma, or indeed dead, he is finally blind to the outside world. If Jon is going to open that 3rd eye, it is now. On a side note: there's a pretty good explanation in that chapter of why someone like Bloodraven can't affect the past and change outcomes. How so?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 3, 2016 18:54:08 GMT
But I still like my explanation better, I think futureBran tapped into Bran in the crypts in order to reach Ghost in a wolf dream that futureBran remembers having, where he sensed Jon was in Ghost at the same time that pastBran was in Summer. Remember in that wolf dream of Jon's it is Ghost that is reaching out for his siblings. That howl is a call to his brothers and sisters and to their partners as well by default. Bran was able to answer it because he too was in a wolf dream at the time. Arya was not, she was in the Godswood at the time. But she still heard the howl.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 3, 2016 19:58:17 GMT
What? Too much?
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Post by min on Aug 3, 2016 20:22:35 GMT
Jojen tells Bran abuot the sea coming to Winterfell and seeing drowned bodies of people he now recognizes. Bran doesn't believe him at first so he tells him about little Walder and big Walder recieving a poor cut of meat witch they relish and Bran recieves he best cut which he doesn't enjoy. Then they recieve the news that the Walder's uncle has been killed in battle and boys are delighted because that changes the succession. Then Bran realizes that Jojen is telling the truth and want to warn everyone. Jojen says it doesn't matter that green dreams are true and can't be changed. Alebelly hears the news that he will drown and refuses to bathe and go to the well. He stays behind at Winterfell instead of going with the war party towards the sea. In the end he is killed by theon's gang. So either people won't believe you or they will take action that leads to the same result. Jojen also sees Reek v1.0 peeling off Bran and Rickon's faces. This turns out to be about substituting the miller's boys instead of their death. (And makes me wonder if Reek is a faceless man.)
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Post by min on Aug 3, 2016 20:23:16 GMT
To add to this up until the his last chapter in Dance, Jon has not had the opportunity to do so either. Bran discovers he can slip his skin in the crypts of WF, where it is so dark he can't see the hand in front of his face. Arya discovers she can slip her skin while she is blind. Jon has never had a period where he's blind in any sense yet. Now that he is either grievously hurt and in a possible coma, or indeed dead, he is finally blind to the outside world. If Jon is going to open that 3rd eye, it is now. This is a good point.
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Post by min on Aug 3, 2016 20:26:34 GMT
But I still like my explanation better, I think futureBran tapped into Bran in the crypts in order to reach Ghost in a wolf dream that futureBran remembers having, where he sensed Jon was in Ghost at the same time that pastBran was in Summer. Remember in that wolf dream of Jon's it is Ghost that is reaching out for his siblings. That howl is a call to his brothers and sisters and to their partners as well by default. Bran was able to answer it because he too was in a wolf dream at the time. Arya was not, she was in the Godswood at the time. But she still heard the howl. I still haven't looked at the DwD Bran chapters. I may find something else there. It's the "smell of death" I'm looking for. LOL! If I can get past this bit; I'll put the next bit out on the power of the word and the pledge to protect. That takes me to Sam and Coldhands.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 3, 2016 20:29:23 GMT
Jojen tells Bran abuot the sea coming to Winterfell and seeing drowned bodies of people he now recognizes. Bran doesn't believe him at first so he tells him about little Walder and big Walder recieving a poor cut of meat witch they relish and Bran recieves he best cut which he doesn't enjoy. Then they recieve the news that the Walder's uncle has been killed in battle and boys are delighted because that changes the succession. Then Bran realizes that Jojen is telling the truth and want to warn everyone. Jojen says it doesn't matter that green dreams are true and can't be changed. Alebelly hears the news that he will drown and refuses to bathe and go to the well. He stays behind at Winterfell instead of going with the war party towards the sea. In the end he is killed by theon's gang. So either people won't believe you or they will take action that leads to the same result. Jojen also sees Reek v1.0 peeling off Bran and Rickon's faces. This turns out to be about substituting the miller's boys instead of their death. (And makes me wonder if Reek is a faceless man.) I'm actually happy you brought up this passage, for an unrelated reason to this thread...it's an exercise in how to interpret the inversion chapters!
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Post by min on Aug 3, 2016 20:32:31 GMT
Nice catch there! If you can see the future in your dreams then it is possible that Bran dreamed he communicated with Ghost and Jon at a future date. Sort of like a greendream that Jojen has. This links in with why future Bran would choose this dream in order to communicate with Jon. In essence, Bran is not changing the future with his time travelling, he is closing loops. If you can see what I mean? Yes, possibly. But I like a straightforward answer. Bran contacted Jon some time in his own future; which Jon experiences as his present time and Bran dreamed about it in his past. So Bran is not changing Jon's past.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 3, 2016 21:35:11 GMT
Nice catch there! If you can see the future in your dreams then it is possible that Bran dreamed he communicated with Ghost and Jon at a future date. Sort of like a greendream that Jojen has. This links in with why future Bran would choose this dream in order to communicate with Jon. In essence, Bran is not changing the future with his time travelling, he is closing loops. If you can see what I mean? Yes, possibly. But I like a straightforward answer. Bran contacted Jon some time in his own future; which Jon experiences as his present time and Bran dreamed about it in his past. So Bran is not changing Jon's past. If future Bran contacted Jon (in Jon's present) getting him to open his third eye might have helped him with something, which may or may not have changed his (Jon's) future.
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Post by min on Aug 3, 2016 21:55:56 GMT
If future Bran contacted Jon (in Jon's present) getting him to open his third eye might have helped him with something, which may or may not have changed his (Jon's) future Yes, exactly.
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tucu
Black Iron
Posts: 23
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Post by tucu on Aug 3, 2016 22:22:44 GMT
Jojen tells Bran abuot the sea coming to Winterfell and seeing drowned bodies of people he now recognizes. Bran doesn't believe him at first so he tells him about little Walder and big Walder recieving a poor cut of meat witch they relish and Bran recieves he best cut which he doesn't enjoy. Then they recieve the news that the Walder's uncle has been killed in battle and boys are delighted because that changes the succession. Then Bran realizes that Jojen is telling the truth and want to warn everyone. Jojen says it doesn't matter that green dreams are true and can't be changed. Alebelly hears the news that he will drown and refuses to bathe and go to the well. He stays behind at Winterfell instead of going with the war party towards the sea. In the end he is killed by theon's gang. So either people won't believe you or they will take action that leads to the same result. Jojen also sees Reek v1.0 peeling off Bran and Rickon's faces. This turns out to be about substituting the miller's boys instead of their death. (And makes me wonder if Reek is a faceless man.) I would see that an example on how prophecy can be used to change the future if properly used. Jojen dreams of Ramsay (I would call him Reek 2.0) flaying Rickon and Bran; he also sees Rickon and Bran in the crypts. Based on that dream Howland send his children to Winterfell where they design a plan to save Bran and Rickon without trying to change the prophecy too much: send the wolves away and hide in the crypts. Without the prophecy they would not have thought of hiding in the crypts and would have been captured by Ramsay later on.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 3, 2016 23:37:26 GMT
If future Bran contacted Jon (in Jon's present) getting him to open his third eye might have helped him with something, which may or may not have changed his (Jon's) future. Seeing as how that dream is completely skewiff, a tree where there are no trees, then a jump from being beside the trail to being on the cliff's edge, I'd say that Bran showed Jon what was happening at the Milkwater on purpose. Yes that sets a whole series of events in motion. Had Jon not seen what Ghost suddenly, out of nowhere, seeing happening with the wildlings, would they have run? Or walked right into their men waiting for them and fought them off like they with Ygritte's group and actually have gotten away once they saw what the wildlings were doing with their own eyes? Who knows, but in order for Jon to get the wildlings past the Wall amicably he had to join them.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 4, 2016 1:34:31 GMT
If future Bran contacted Jon (in Jon's present) getting him to open his third eye might have helped him with something, which may or may not have changed his (Jon's) future. Seeing as how that dream is completely skewiff, a tree where there are no trees, then a jump from being beside the trail to being on the cliff's edge, I'd say that Bran showed Jon what was happening at the Milkwater on purpose. Yes that sets a whole series of events in motion. Had Jon not seen what Ghost suddenly, out of nowhere, seeing happening with the wildlings, would they have run? Or walked right into their men waiting for them and fought them off like they with Ygritte's group and actually have gotten away once they saw what the wildlings were doing with their own eyes? Who knows, but in order for Jon to get the wildlings past the Wall amicably he had to join them. Yes, it was helpful for Jon to see where the wildlings were through Ghost's eyes, but he still did not learn to deliberately and knowingly open his third eye. How many times did Jojen have to tell Bran before Bran was able to do it? Please say three! Anybody?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 4, 2016 2:31:13 GMT
Three!
Joking. I have no idea. Min might know she's been reading and rereading those chapters lately.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 4, 2016 3:21:08 GMT
Three! Joking. I have no idea. Min might know she's been reading and rereading those chapters lately. I still laughed!
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