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Post by ac on Aug 5, 2016 19:35:05 GMT
I was going to post this is the hinges of the world thread but wasn't sure it was really on topic there. Feel free to merge this with an existing thread if that seems more appropriate.
From Bran's coma dream:
Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.
How do you interpret this? Even though it doesn't sound like it at first, to me least, I read that the curtain of light at the end of the world is the wall. Or more accurately the magical component of the wall.
More and more I've come to believe that the physical wall is just a side-effect of the magical "curtain of light" that was created to keep out the cold. Thousands of years of the snow and cold winds battering against this barrier have left what we see today.
The magical part is what I believe Bran the Builder actual constructed. Not just at the wall but also Winterfell, Hightower (a beacon of light!) and Storm's End. Maybe this is the role that modern day Bran will play.
One final thing with the curtain metaphor is that, like a real curtain closed in front of an open window, it still lets a little of the cold magic through at close range which might help to explain how Jafer and Othor were reanimated as wights.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 5, 2016 20:35:26 GMT
A straight forward interpretation would be that the Wall is much further south than that curtain of light. The curtain of light can be taken as Aurora Borealis that we see close to the north pole in our own world. Then Bran goes beyond that to the pole itself. Whatever he sees there is the heart of Ice rather than the just the heart of winter.
However, I like what you're saying here because that curtain can act as defensive barrier for the forces of Ice, aka the Others. So in essence it is another type of wall. Is it linked to the 700ft tall edifice further south? Sure, as min theorises, the Wall is a block for the killing cold. That power would have its own defensive wall too, I would think. Perhaps it is the curtain of light.
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Post by min on Aug 5, 2016 20:59:33 GMT
Yes, I've often wondered about the curtain of light; surrounding the heart of darkness. Light/Dark I think about the ice spears surrounding the heart as well. And I wonder what is reflecting the light and perhaps separating as it in a prism. Up until now; I've thought of both the spears and the curtain as defensive walls. If you think about the Great Temple of R'hllor in Volantis; we're told that there are 1000 Fiery Hands of R'hllor with spears surrounding the temple no more or less. When one goes out another is kindled. And I wonder if this is mirrored in some way in the heart of darkness.
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Post by ac on Aug 5, 2016 21:24:47 GMT
However, I like what you're saying here because that curtain can act as defensive barrier for the forces of Ice, aka the Others. So in essence it is another type of wall. Is it linked to the 700ft tall edifice further south? Sure, as min theorises, the Wall is a block for the killing cold. That power would have its own defensive wall too, I would think. Perhaps it is the curtain of light. Although it is written like that I don't think the curtain of light is further north than the wall. I think GRRM is repeating himself to say they are equivalent. Like this: Finally he looked north North and north and north he looked
He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal to the curtain of light at the end of the world
And he looked past the Wall and then beyond that curtain
past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived He looked deep into the heart of winterOld Nan (and others I believe) call the wall the end of the world. Even GRRM himself said he wanted to "write a story about the people guarding the end of the world" in relation to the wall. I also found this, which is the first line of the wikipedia article for the architectural term "curtain wall" : A curtain wall system is an outer covering of a building in which the outer walls are non-structural, but merely keep the weather out and the occupants in.
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Post by jnr on Aug 6, 2016 0:15:15 GMT
The curtain of light can be taken as Aurora Borealis that we see close to the north pole in our own world. And in Show World. D&D went out of their way to depict it in the sky for the infamously bad Heart of Winter scene.
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Post by min on Aug 6, 2016 0:29:54 GMT
However, I like what you're saying here because that curtain can act as defensive barrier for the forces of Ice, aka the Others. So in essence it is another type of wall. Is it linked to the 700ft tall edifice further south? Sure, as min theorises, the Wall is a block for the killing cold. That power would have its own defensive wall too, I would think. Perhaps it is the curtain of light. Although it is written like that I don't think the curtain of light is further north than the wall. I think GRRM is repeating himself to say they are equivalent. Like this: Finally he looked north North and north and north he looked
He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal to the curtain of light at the end of the world
And he looked past the Wall and then beyond that curtain
past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived He looked deep into the heart of winterOld Nan (and others I believe) call the wall the end of the world. Even GRRM himself said he wanted to "write a story about the people guarding the end of the world" in relation to the wall. I also found this, which is the first line of the wikipedia article for the architectural term "curtain wall" : A curtain wall system is an outer covering of a building in which the outer walls are non-structural, but merely keep the weather out and the occupants in.That's really interesting. What if this is a second defensive wall another set of warding against the heart of darkness. I wonder which wall the horn of joramun actually brings down; the ice wall or the curtain wall. Great observation! On the other hand, if Bran is looking at the Wall and the Curtain of light as the same thing; then it could be that he can actually see the warding in the wall.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 6, 2016 0:50:31 GMT
On the other hand, if Bran is looking at the Wall and the Curtain of light as the same thing; then it could be that he can actually see the warding in the wall. LOL I was just thinking the same exact thing while reading ac's persuasive description. The light represents the warding that most can not see.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 6, 2016 0:53:16 GMT
The curtain of light can be taken as Aurora Borealis that we see close to the north pole in our own world. And in Show World. D&D went out of their way to depict it in the sky for the infamously bad Heart of Winter scene. LOL again, because -- translation -- Dunc got it wrong since the show made a point of showing it.
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Post by min on Aug 6, 2016 0:57:08 GMT
And in Show World. D&D went out of their way to depict it in the sky for the infamously bad Heart of Winter scene. LOL again, because -- translation -- Dunc got it wrong since the show made a point of showing it. Haha! The show has a way of anchoring those visuals. It goes back to thinking of the wall as a crystalline structure something that reflects light.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 6, 2016 1:30:09 GMT
I'm still holding to the idea that the heart of winter is in the Grove at the Cave. The heart produces the life flow. Yes, the show had some version of that, but that's not where I'm coming from. The Trees are the source of power that keeps the heart beating. And we have yet to see the top of that hill covered that should be covered with weirwoods since the underground is full of the roots. Free association/rambling - This location could be like a twisted version of a dreamcatcher. Or the Dreamcatcher. Not to mention that Bran travelled somewhere over the rainbow. Way up high. It's a land that he heard of once in Old Nan's stories a lullaby.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 6, 2016 16:51:13 GMT
I was going to post this is the hinges of the world thread but wasn't sure it was really on topic there. Feel free to merge this with an existing thread if that seems more appropriate. From Bran's coma dream: Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.How do you interpret this? Even though it doesn't sound like it at first, to me least, I read that the curtain of light at the end of the world is the wall. Or more accurately the magical component of the wall. More and more I've come to believe that the physical wall is just a side-effect of the magical "curtain of light" that was created to keep out the cold. Thousands of years of the snow and cold winds battering against this barrier have left what we see today. The magical part is what I believe Bran the Builder actual constructed. Not just at the wall but also Winterfell, Hightower (a beacon of light!) and Storm's End. Maybe this is the role that modern day Bran will play. One final thing with the curtain metaphor is that, like a real curtain closed in front of an open window, it still lets a little of the cold magic through at close range which might help to explain how Jafer and Othor were reanimated as wights. Great topic! I've always envisioned the curtain as Northern Lights (more accurately Polar Lights) indicating the Northern Pole of Planetos. That isn't to say that old Turtle hasn't injected his fantasy twist on this bit of science, so I'm in agreement that the curtain is a magical... veil of sorts. Between Planetos and the ultimate time hinge/the magic that is leaking into the world? I really like your description of the open window leaking cold air. The other question would be where this cold air is coming from. (another great parallel discussion to include here). What comes first, the cold air or the white walkers? Also, I've got many questions about the magical nature of the wall. If magic is all that's needed, why is it 700 feet high? Why would the Black Gate be needed, with its additional wards? Etc etc. I'm not sure that the magic of the Wall extends to infinity above and below. This is also partially why I think the cave system in BRs cave and the crypts of Winterfell (with their iron sword wards) connect. Also ties into Gendel and Gorne and the obvious story of the BRs cave and why it was so important for them to fight over with the CotF. A possible hole at the poles is part of my thoughts that Planetos is either tunnelled or hollow or even an interior world - I brought up the Hollow Earth theory elsewhere but I think it is part of my thought process with respect to your OP. So the curtain could be the barrier between the inner and outer earth. This actually has precedence - the curtain as the barrier - in science, science fiction, and fantasy. stopping to take a breath lol
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Post by ac on Aug 6, 2016 18:26:37 GMT
On the other hand, if Bran is looking at the Wall and the Curtain of light as the same thing; then it could be that he can actually see the warding in the wall. This is how I originally imagined it, that they are the same. With a slight difference that, as far as I am aware, these were GRRM's words not Bran's and so it could just be him giving us a clue and wouldn't require Bran to be able to see it. Of course Bran / greenseers in general being able to see / sense wards would be reminiscent of skinchangers sensing eachother. Great topic! I've always envisioned the curtain as Northern Lights (more accurately Polar Lights) indicating the Northern Pole of Planetos. This brings up something else I've wondered about before. Does Planetos have poles and is it round? It doesn't seem to have the equivalent of the south pole. Could you travel west from Westeros and end up in the Shadow Lands / Grey Waste? Also, I've got many questions about the magical nature of the wall. If magic is all that's needed, why is it 700 feet high? I don't think it always was so huge. I think it has grown over time, like a kind up snow drift against the magic curtain. Then as wildlings became an issue and the Others were forgotten about the NW shaped it for that purpose. That isn't to say that old Turtle hasn't injected his fantasy twist on this bit of science, so I'm in agreement that the curtain is a magical... veil of sorts. Between Planetos and the ultimate time hinge/the magic that is leaking into the world? I really like your description of the open window leaking cold air. This wasn't my original thought but it is an interesting angle. Possibly an imperfect patch-up job that had to be done after the Long Night? The other question would be where this cold air is coming from. (another great parallel discussion to include here). What comes first, the cold air or the white walkers? I have a theory that the broad strokes of what the TV show showed us about the creation of the white walkers is true (possibly a different method i.e. not dragonglass in the heart) but that we have been misled and not shown the whole story. This is a hunch that I've had since before the latest season of the TV show although admittedly with no evidence to support it until then.
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Post by min on Aug 6, 2016 19:04:41 GMT
I've been reading some chapters in SoS Sam III. Melisandre says the wights are raised by necromancy and can be killed with steel or fire. The white walker that Sam killed with dragonglass is a child of the Other.
Coldhands is also familiar with the difference. In DwD he tells Bran not to light a fire because it would attract foes who glide across the snow and leave no tracks. In other words the white walkers. When Leaf tells Bran that theykilled him long ago; I think she meant the WW. Bran calls him a Ranger and he was a man of the Night's Watch and was probably killed by them long ago; given his version of the Nights Watch Oath is the older version before the Andals took over the wall. I think it's possible that he was a green man and this ability gave him immunity to the necromancy that changes the dead into wights with blue eyes. He remained autonomous. He's probably the Monster in Bran's stories that comes to collect the apprentice boys.
I wonder now if the white walkers also patrol the wall for interlopers; if that's their purpose. If the wall is a kind of demilitarized zone with forces on both sides.
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Post by ac on Aug 7, 2016 0:24:53 GMT
Coldhands is also familiar with the difference. In DwD he tells Bran not to light a fire because it would attract foes who glide across the snow and leave no tracks. In other words the white walkers. Maybe I am getting my wires crossed here but I would assume only the Others "glide across the snow and leave no tracks". The wights seem a lot more zombie-like in kind of stumbling around. As an aside I view the Others as a kind of vampire or wraith-like race that are able to plan and think strategically but are driven by an almost irresistible "thirst". On the other hand I think of the wights as more akin to the Walking Dead from the TV show.
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Post by min on Aug 7, 2016 1:07:47 GMT
The wights are different from the white walkers also called the others. These are the creatures that show up in the prologue of GoT and kill Waymar Royce and presumabely Othor and Jafr. The white walkers have the swords of ice and leave no tracks in the snow. They seem to glide and they have a camouflage that makes them blend in with the background as though they're bodies are mirrored. So far we have only seen a very few of them. Some think they are made of ice and air; so they have little weight. They have intelligence and language. As an aside I view the Others as a kind of vampire or wraith-like race that are able to plan and think strategically but are driven by an almost irresistible "thirst". On the other hand I think of the wights as more akin to the Walking Dead from the TV show. That's a good description.
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