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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 3:44:51 GMT
Oh, you're way ahead of me! The question is when did Petyr have the chance to rape Lyanna. I think in the show he talks about the Tourney at Harrenhal. Is there any corroboration in the books? If he hurt her there and Petyr left before the Starks could find out that would make some sense to me. Of course he'd run away. Who would she turn to for help. Ashara? Rickard? Did Rhaegar know? Is this why they were trying to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree? When Rickard catches up to Baelish he slits his belly and Petyr doesn't return to Riverrun but goes back to the Fingers. Ned and Robert don't know what happened, but Rickard and Rhaegar do know?
When Petyr kisses Sansa, does he do it with the knowledge that Lyssa is watching? Does she fly into a rage because Petyr did the same thing to Lyanna. Does she accuse Sansa/Lyanna of being the provocateur? Is this the lie Petyr told Lyssa about Lyanna? Lyanna refuses to go the wedding of the sisters because of Lyssa? Then she makes her escape with the Maester?
How many bards would be at such a tourney who might then go on the Riverrun and hear about that scandal. Could Mance have been there?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 11, 2016 3:53:18 GMT
This is about Petyr Baelish who tasted Jon Arryn's wife Lyssa, the fisherman's daughter long before she married Jon Arryn. This could mean that Jon Snow is Baelish's son by Lyanna if he ever had access to her at Riverrun. I think a rape is likely and the person who is likely to kill him for it is Rickard Stark. But he didn't finish the job; just slit him up the belly. He must have been close to death. Hang about, weren't you the one that said she would hate it if Littlefinger ended up being Jon Snow's father? I think you mean Brandon would've tried to kill him for it. But it was Baelish that challenged Brandon to a duel for Catelyn's hand, so how does that fit in? Or do you think the Lyanna stuff was going on behind the scenes and Catelyn left out of the loop? I mean it's possible.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 4:46:45 GMT
I think Petyr attacked Lyanna at the Tournament and then took off before it became known. I think Lyanna told Brandon (got them mixed up there) and swore him to secrecy and that's why Ned and Robert didn't know. This screwed up the Stark's Southron ambitions and either Brandon told Rhaegar that Lyanna had been dishonored or Lyanna confided in Ashara. When Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown of roses; it's an acknowledgement that he knows what has happened to her. Lyanna can no longer marry Robert. He would know she is not a virgin. Brandon persues Baelish and slits him up he belly leaving him for dead.
Baelish goes back to the Fingers instead of Riverrun. Lyanna goes home and Ned and Robert go back to the Eyrie. A few months later Lyanna discovers she's pregnant; so when Brandon and Rickard are summoned to King's Landing; Ned goes to Riverrun to get married and Lyanna disappears with Maester Cressen and goes to Starfall for hiding and protection. Robert assumes Rhaegar kidnapped her because of the crowning at the Tourney. Ned doesn't know any differently until he goes to look for her at the end of Robert's Rebellion. Brandon might have made prior arrangements to send Lyanna to Starfall but he dies; so we don't know. We only know she ended up there.
It puts Jorah Mormont's comment that Dany is like Rhaegar into perspective. Dany takes MMD and some of the lamb women under her protection when the Dothraki are raping and burning. Her brother did the same for Lyanna. It means that he knew where she was also. Ser Arthur probably told him since they were like brothers and this is his king.
I still think she had another child by Rheagar. One that Connington is trying to pass of as the first son by Elia. Even with the age difference; we're not talking about comparing and infant to a two year old. When Tyrion catches up to him he's a teenager. It might be more difficult to tell his true age at that point. People are going to see what they want to see when he is presented as Aegon by Elia. He's grown up to think he is the first son rather than the second son and that's the way he'll behave. People are likely to give him that authority without questioning his age and appearance. Especially if he is wearing armor and clothing that makes him appear bigger and older.
I doubt that Lyanna had a child with Ser Arthur, he would probably stick to his vows. Ashara may have had a child in that time and lost it or sent her into hiding, but it's probably not Ned's.
Ned has a strong dislike for Baelish but can't confront him about Jon. Having also been sworn to secrecy. He doesn't want Jon to know about his father, never mind his mother and he doesn't want Baelish to know that Jon is his son. Brandon carried out the King's Justice and the god's decided.
If Lyanna had a fever or a sickness; she may have been kept in isolation at the Tower of Joy. The bed of blood could be explained by internal bleeding caused by the sickness. I don't think she would have been kept there alone for childbirth bit away from her children to avoid spreading the sickness.
The Silent Sisters would likely prepare the body before Ned went back to the Sisters by ship. He took Jon and his nursemaid; Ashara and fAegon with him. They parted company at the Sisters.
The question is whether or not Petyr gives himself away in his interactions with Lyssa and Sansa.
******
This is probably also the point where Maester Marwyn shows up in Petyr's life; given his knowledge of anatomy and the kind of injury that Petyr recieved. He might have been on one of his mapping expeditions or he might be the only Maester who would lower himself to serve at the Fingers. Given his reputation for frequenting backwater drinking establishments and assorted dives.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 10:49:08 GMT
I think a link to Petyr can be made, however I don't think it happened as early as Harrenhal. Petyr was in love with Catelyn. He wouldn't have wanted revenge on the Starks until after his duel with Brandon.
In The Queenmaker chapter Arianne plots to crown "little Myrcella". She thinks that by doing so she will gain support to overthrow her father and become Lady of Dorne. Little Myrcella is more than just Cersei's daughter, she symbolizes a marriage alliance between the crown and Dorne. the inversion of this situation is Cersei trying to prevent Lyanna from being crowned. Lyanna is promised to Robert, which is also symbolic of the alliance between the north and the crown, or rather the presumed future crown.
Arianne enlists Arys Oakheart's help to sneak Myrcella out of the castle. He gets someone to dress in his armor so that it looks like he's still guarding Myrcella's door. He and Myrcella paint red spots on her handmaiden's face to keep people from getting close enough to realize that Rosamund isn't Myrcella. The inversion to this is Cersei enlists the help of Jaime, and perhaps even Robert. Maester Walys is with Lyanna who is also said to have red spots. Either she really does have red spots, or something else is going on to keep her isolated. I had suggested she was already pregnant, but she could just be sick. Either Jaime or Robert dresses in Rhaegar's armor when Lyanna is taken.
Arys Oakheart takes Myrcella far away from Sunspear and leads her to an abandoned well. Arianne, Drey, and Spotted Sylva are riding ahead of Arys, and when they get to the well, Garin and Darkstar are already there waiting. The leading of Myrcella to this "well" symbolizes how Lyanna was lead to her death. Wells and water are connected to Lannisters as a preferred method of killing people. Lyanna wouldn't need to have been lead to an actual well...just taken to an area where they planned to kill her. This is where I think Petyr could come into the plan, and this could be his origin story as to how he came to know the Lannisters and be given positions of power. His first assignment controlling customs in Gulltown was an appointment given to him by Jon Arryn, who by that time was Hand of King Robert. Credit is given to Lyssa for the assignment, but it could have been a reward for his part in getting rid of Lyanna.
Petyr's great grandfather was a Braavosi swordsman, and this background may have been a sort of "qualification" that could have been used to have him brought into the plot to kill Lyanna. I suspect that the kidnapping was planned by a larger group of conspirators with the expectation that Lyanna would become "no one", but I think Cersei had a small inner group who meant for her to die.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 11:51:16 GMT
Who were the squires who bullied Howland at the Tourney at Harrenhal? Were they Lannisters? I'm wondering if they were involved in overpowering Lyanna because she defended Howland publicly and this is why she put on armor and trounced them in the Tourney without revealing her identity. Was Petyr among them. Is this why Ned allows Arya to keep needle and then hires a dancing master; because she is so like Lyanna and he recognizes that daughters need to be able to defend themselves. Isn't Marillon a liar? Someone who flatters Lyssa and has an power advantage over the maids and servings girls that he then takes advantage. Didn't he try this with Sansa. Doesn't Lyssa then dismiss the servant girls for their lies and blame them instead of Marillon? Isn't Petyr exactly this kind of man? As far as Catelyn being the love of Petyr's life; sure, in a sociopathic sort of way. And didn't he tell Lyssa the same thing? We can't believe a word he says except when he comes out and tells Ned that he can't believe a word he says. Would Brandon really go after Petyr and split him from groin to sternum just because Petyr was in love with Catelyn? That's quite a whopper. The way Catelyn tells it; he was nothing more than a little brother and nothing happened between them to think otherwise. Whose honor is Rickard defending, his future sister-in-law or his own sister? It's very convenient for Petyr that Brandon isn't around to correct the record. Alliances were being considered at the Tourney. Rickard's Southron ambitions. No doubt Rhaegar was aware of them of party to the discussions. What choice did Brandon have but to tell Rhaegar and the Daynes what happened to Lyanna since she could not longer marry Robert.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 11, 2016 13:31:09 GMT
Quick note to say this is my new favorite theory! Must revisit later when I have time. When Petyr kisses Sansa, does he do it with the knowledge that Lyssa is watching? Does she fly into a rage because Petyr did the same thing to Lyanna. Does she accuse Sansa/Lyanna of being the provocateur? Is this the lie Petyr told Lyssa about Lyanna? Lyanna refuses to go the wedding of the sisters because of Lyssa? Then she makes her escape with the Maester?*shakes fist at Walys*
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 13:34:01 GMT
Quick note to say this is my new favorite theory! Must revisit later when I have time. When Petyr kisses Sansa, does he do it with the knowledge that Lyssa is watching? Does she fly into a rage because Petyr did the same thing to Lyanna. Does she accuse Sansa/Lyanna of being the provocateur? Is this the lie Petyr told Lyssa about Lyanna? Lyanna refuses to go the wedding of the sisters because of Lyssa? Then she makes her escape with the Maester?*shakes fist at Walys* Walys was it then? Thanks for reading!
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 16:36:55 GMT
Sorry, didn't mean to go off topic with Sansa... If Mance knows something about Petyr, then Mance played a bard at Riverrun and he must know something. I think we need to pay attention to passages about Marillion. Sansa is the subject as she represents a stand-in for Lyanna and what transpires at the Eyre. weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, While Arya represents Lyanna in her looks and behavior. The two sisters again.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 16:56:36 GMT
Petyr's great grandfather was a Braavosi swordsman, and this background may have been a sort of "qualification" that could have been used to have him brought into the plot to kill Lyanna. I suspect that the kidnapping was planned by a larger group of conspirators with the expectation that Lyanna would become "no one", but I think Cersei had a small inner group who meant for her to die. I think Lyanna escaped with Maester Wylis and went to Starfall as a pre-arranged plan. Rhaegar had not yet betrothed to Elia at the Tourney at least this seems to be the case with Cersei's version of events. She was told that she was going to marry Rhaegar but then he married Elia. This make Aerys suspicious on his son's ambitions. In Ser Barristan's version of the story; it looks like Ashara and Ned, the young wolf had a thing for each other. Something that causes Aerys to kill Rickard and Brandon and wants Jon Arryn to send Robert and Ned to Kingslanding. Robert goes to Winterfell to marry Lyanna but she is not there and nobody knows where she has gone. In Roberts version she has been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar with the emphasis on her rape. He cannot now marry a spoiled woman. Tywin then takes advantage and marries Cersei to Robert. Robert joins forces with the 'money' who can support his war against the Targaryens. In Meera's version; she tells of her father meeting the Starks and Lyanna's defense of Howland against the bullies at the Tourney. Something that may have caused the bullies to attack her later. She then appears as the Knight of the Laughing Tree to claim a victory over them; to gain back her own power. So she will not be "the weeping woman, broken on the ground." She had lost her innocence. If Petyr was involved; this would be the point in the story where that happened. It was Tywin's ambition to have Cersei marry Rhaegar and when he took Elia instead; Tywin started poring poison into Aerys' ears about his son. Tywin engineered Robert's Rebellion but he stayed on the sidelines while underwriting Robert's finances until he knew the outcome. But it was Jaimie who killed Aerys for the reasons he gives Brienne which was no part of Tywin's plan. Then he had Gregor kill Elia and the heir. Lyanna's disappearance was also not part of his plan. That was Lyanna's, the Maester's and probably Brandon's plan. Tywin just took advantage of the disappearance and Robert's version of events early on in the game. Tywin probably reinforced the kidnapping story in Robert's mind to fuel Robert's anger in order to prosecute his own war against the Targaryens. It didn't require him to kidnap Lyanna, she was already gone.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 17:29:20 GMT
Who were the squires who bullied Howland at the Tourney at Harrenhal? Were they Lannisters? I'm wondering if they were involved in overpowering Lyanna because she defended Howland publicly and this is why she put on armor and trounced them in the Tourney without revealing her identity. Was Petyr among them. No Lannisters, but one Frey: "One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well." Isn't Marillon a liar? Someone who flatters Lyssa and has an power advantage over the maids and servings girls that he then takes advantage. Didn't he try this with Sansa. Doesn't Lyssa then dismiss the servant girls for their lies and blame them instead of Marillon? Isn't Petyr exactly this kind of man? Does Marillion represent Petyr or Mance? I was thinking Mance. Petyr is bael-ish or bael-like in that he stole a northman's wife, but Mance is more like the bard aspect of Bael, and we were looking for a way for Mance to know what Petyr did since Mance is the one that was singing the song, "The Dornishman's Wife", but had changed the lyrics to "The Northman's Wife". Is this why Ned allows Arya to keep needle and then hires a dancing master; because she is so like Lyanna and he recognizes that daughters need to be able to defend themselves. I agree that Ned wanted Arya to have sword lessons, because Lyanna died of a sword wound. As far as Catelyn being the love of Petyr's life; sure, in a sociopathic sort of way. And didn't he tell Lyssa the same thing? We can't believe a word he says except when he comes out and tells Ned that he can't believe a word he says. Would Brandon really go after Petyr and split him from groin to sternum just because Petyr was in love with Catelyn? That's quite a whopper. The way Catelyn tells it; he was nothing more than a little brother and nothing happened between them to think otherwise. Whose honor is Rickard defending, his future sister-in-law or his own sister? It's very convenient for Petyr that Brandon isn't around to correct the record. Catelyn is the one that provided the story: They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. “He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die.” And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her. That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that. That was the last time she had seen his face…until the day she was brought before him in King’s Landing. A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born. I think Lyanna escaped with Maester Wylis and went to Starfall as a pre-arranged plan. Rhaegar had not yet betrothed to Elia at the Tourney at least this seems to be the case with Cersei's version of events. Elia and Rhaegar were already married at the time of the Harrenhal tourney, and likely pregnant with Aegon already. Tywin had tried to make a marriage match between Rhaegar and Cersei a few years before the tourney. His anger has been stewing and he's been plotting his revenge, and he may have been a secret backer of the tourney.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 17:31:53 GMT
I think Brandon humiliated Petyr and that was his motive for wanting to hurt Lyanna. So you need to adjust your timeline for after the tourney and after the duel.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 17:44:26 GMT
Does Marillion represent Petyr or Mance? I was thinking Mance. Petyr is bael-ish or bael-like in that he stole a northman's wife, but Mance is more like the bard aspect of Bael, and we were looking for a way for Mance to know what Petyr did since Mance is the one that was singing the song, "The Dornishman's Wife", but had changed the lyrics to "The Northman's Wife" I think trying to compare bards to Mance is clouding the issue. The point I'm making is something about their behavior. The comparison is between Marillon and Petyr and how Lyssa reacts. Marillon has been taking advantage of his favor with Lyssa to force unwanted attention on the maids and servant girls, an imbalance of power. He even tries it with Sansa. Something she doesn't say anything about, like a lot of women. When the staff go to their mistress; she blames the victim and dismisses them. Something that also probably occurred with Petyr when he was a ward at Riverrun. Something that Petyr would reinforce in her mind; because you know, he loves her so much. If Lyanna had spent any time at Riverrun; she might have come into contact with Petyr then and Lyssa might have espied him trying to come onto her; in the same manner that he does with Sansa. Lyssa then hits the roof saying that she has had this kind of experience before and we're not talking about Marillon.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 17:49:43 GMT
They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. “He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die.” And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her. That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that. That was the last time she had seen his face…until the day she was brought before him in King’s Landing. A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born. Yes, you're right. Forgot about this entirely.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 17:53:50 GMT
Does Marillion represent Petyr or Mance? I was thinking Mance. Petyr is bael-ish or bael-like in that he stole a northman's wife, but Mance is more like the bard aspect of Bael, and we were looking for a way for Mance to know what Petyr did since Mance is the one that was singing the song, "The Dornishman's Wife", but had changed the lyrics to "The Northman's Wife" I think trying to compare bards to Mance is clouding the issue. The point I'm making is something about their behavior. The comparison is between Marillon and Petyr and how Lyssa reacts. Marillon has been taking advantage of his favor with Lyssa to force unwanted attention on the maids and servant girls, an imbalance of power. He even tries it with Sansa. Something she doesn't say anything about, like a lot of women. When the staff go to their mistress; she blames the victim and dismisses them. Something that also probably occurred with Petyr when he was a ward at Riverrun. Something that Petyr would reinforce in her mind; because you know, he loves her so much. If Lyanna had spent any time at Riverrun; she might have come into contact with Petyr then and Lyssa might have espied him trying to come onto her; in the same manner that he does with Sansa. Lyssa then hits the roof saying that she has had this kind of experience before and we're not talking about Marillon. OK, I think I'm on the same page now. You are drawing a parallel between Marillion and Petyr as men that abuse their position and deflect the blame onto the very people they are abusing. Got it, and agreed. However, Lyssa never mentions being jealous of Lyanna, but she was very jealous of her sister, Catelyn. That's who she viewed as her competition, and Sansa looks very much like her mother, so Lyssa is associating Sansa with Catelyn. Plus we don't have any record of Lyanna spending time at Riverrun, so I cannot agree with this part.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 17:59:24 GMT
OK, I think I'm on the same page now. You are drawing a parallel between Marillion and Petyr as men that abuse their position and deflect the blame onto the very people they are abusing. Got it, and agreed. However, Lyssa never mentions being jealous of Lyanna, but she was very jealous of her sister, Catelyn. That's who she viewed as her competition, and Sansa looks very much like her mother, so Lyssa is associating Sansa with Catelyn. Plus we don't have any record of Lyanna spending time at Riverrun, so I cannot agree with this part. It can't be Petyr but he has reason to sabotage Ned. The question is how and why did Lyanna end up at Starfall. I still think this is her own plan. So we're back to Starkcest.
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