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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 23:30:57 GMT
Following the death of his father, Hoster inherited the rule to Riverrun, at some point in or between 264 AC and 267 AC.[10] Following the Tully funeral customs, Hoster's father was sent downriver, which Hoster was to set aflame by firing a fire arrow. While Hoster missed his first shot, his second arrow found sail.[7]
At some point, Hoster attempted to betroth his younger brother Brynden to Bethany Redwyne. Brynden, however, refused, which began a decades-long feud between the two brothers.[11] Hoster would receive other offers for Brynden over the years, including one from Lord Bracken and one from Lord Walder Frey, but Brynden refused them all.[3]
Hoster himself was married to Lady Minisa Whent. She gave birth to four sons and two daughters; however, only three children (two daughters and a son) would survive infancy. Following the death of his two eldest sons, Hoster came to regard his eldest daughter, Catelyn, as his heir, until another son was born to him. According to Catelyn, she was Hoster's favorite child.[12] A restless man in his prime, Hoster was often away from home.[6] His daughters and ward sometimes accompanied him.[13] When they did not, Hoster always told Catelyn to wait for him at Riverrun when he left on one of his journeys, which she did.[8]
Hoster was a travelling man who sometimes took his ward Petyr Baelish with him. He's is married to a Minisa Whent. House Whent is the strongest vasal of House Tully. He had to have gone to that tourney with Petyr.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 11, 2016 23:36:41 GMT
Hoster was a travelling man who sometimes took his ward Petyr Baelish with him. He's is married to a Minisa Whent. House Whent is the strongest vasal of House Tully. He had to have gone to that tourney with Petyr. I agree. Especially when you consider that the Whents at one point held Harrenhal, there is no way he'd have not taken his children to see their maternal family's ancestral home.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 12, 2016 0:01:46 GMT
So far nothing indicates that any Tullys were there. However...I wonder if perhaps their ward was there. Think about this: The squires that bullied Howland: "One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well." The squires SERVED those houses: Haigh, Blount, Frey. That does not mean they are FROM those houses - in most cases, squires are put in service to houses other than their own. Now, these are all Riverlands houses, so there's a good chance they are in service to each other - for a while I suspected that the three squires' houses are Frey, Haigh, and Vypern, as they are all very close to each other and all three were involved in the Red Wedding. An important takeaway from the KotLT tale is that the mystery knight shamed the squires publicly, and made the knights they served redress them in front of all in attendance. This would have been a HUGE embarrassment, not only to the houses of the knights, but the houses of the squires. Now, perhaps no one ever learned the identity of the KotLT, but they certainly knew the identity of the person who fired up the shame train, and that was Lyanna Stark. I'm not ruling out the idea that Petyr was actually one of those squires - he fits the age given for them and the only physical description is that they were all bigger than Howland, and that would certainly provide him with motive to do something heinous later. My second guess though would be that he learned the identity of the KotLT and then used that to his advantage in some way. Littlefinger deals in information, much like Varys, and he never, ever gets his own hands dirty. If there was a plot, he set up the cyvasse board and positioned the pieces to take out each other. I don't think he's the type to directly brutalize or murder someone. Besides, Lyanna beat up three 15yo boys with a tourney sword. She would have kicked Littlefinger's ass had he tried something physical. No, if he played the game it would have been a mental one.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 1:05:11 GMT
I did go through the Hoster Tully chapters but I'm not finding much except for the bits about Tansy and the bed of blood. Another bit about yielding. Tansy being the herb that brings on miscarriages. Catelyn doesn't know who Tansy is but later surmises that it's her sister who was then used as a bargaining chip with Jon Arryn because she was proven fertile. I don't think Hoster suspected Petyr until after he was gone. I'm not sure that Brandon's anger and Petyr's banishment had anything to do with Lysa.
The squires were shamed after the KoLT but she also put them to shame before that when she came to Howland's defense. If a revenge was taken that night; I can see someone putting on the armor in her defense if she herself wasn't the knight and I can see Petyr as a ringleader.
There is really not much to go on.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 12, 2016 2:04:25 GMT
min What about in the story that Meera told Bran about the tourney? Is there any mention of the fish lord/heir or fish girl(s)?
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 10:29:25 GMT
min What about in the story that Meera told Bran about the tourney? Is there any mention of the fish lord/heir or fish girl(s)? I haven't checked Meera's version yet. The interesting thing is something I read in the Hostler/Catelyn exchange about Tansy and the maester's comment about Hostor yielding at the end of his life, the battle is over. To which Catelyn thinks: Yield, meaning to make peace, And the business of Hoster's old memory of Tansy and the bed of blood. Which brings the fight between Petyr and Brandon to mind and that Petyr wouldn't yield to a better swordsman over the woman he loved. Which then brings Ned's comment that Ser Arthur would have killed him if it hadn't been for Howland to mind. Was the battle over and Ned refused to Yield to Ser Arthur? Did Howland save Ned from dying after Ser Arthur gave him the killing blow? Was Ned too low born to marry Ashara? Or was the woman he loved but couldn't marry, Lyanna? Is Jon Ashara's baby or Lyanna's baby? Is Ser Arthur alive? Then there is the parrallel between Tansy (Lysa) and the bed of blood and Ned's fever dream about Lyanna and her bed of blood. Is there a comparison to make between the two? As Catelyn surmises, Tansy is Lysa and she miscarries a bastard. Hoster tells her she will have other trueborn sons. He's frightened that there is so much blood. This is Petyr's child; the man Lysa loves. She is then married off to a man she doesn't love (Jon Arryn) to bind their houses in a war effort. This sounds like Lyanna's marriage to Robert, a man she doesn't love; to seal the houses in the war effort. But who is the man she loves? Is it Ned? Ser Arthur? Does Lyanna die from miscarriage with Ned by her side? There is plenty of imagery in the books associated with the pale stone sword and the star of the morning pointing to Jon. Which would bring us back to Ned and Ashara or Lyanna and Ser Arthur. The question is why did Lyanna disappear from Winterfell and where did she go? Did she die at Winterfell, a result of a miscarriage. Does this explain her disappearance? Was she raped by the squires she shamed after defending Howland from them? Was Petyr a witness or a ringleader? Is this why Brandon slit him up the belly and he was sent back to the Fingers? Did Howland go back to Winterfell with the Starks after the Tourney? Was he Ned's squire? So what happened at the Tower of Joy if Ned lost the fight. Was everyone killed? Did Ser Arther send Ned and Howland back to Star Fall with his sword and the story that he was killed. Did he then tear town the ToJ or take some of the stone and build graves? Did he become the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle? Are the events at the ToJ a false story?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 12, 2016 11:54:02 GMT
min What about in the story that Meera told Bran about the tourney? Is there any mention of the fish lord/heir or fish girl(s)? I haven't checked Meera's version yet. The interesting thing is something I read in the Hostler/Catelyn exchange about Tansy and the maester's comment about Hostor yielding at the end of his life, the battle is over. To which Catelyn thinks: Yield, meaning to make peace, And the business of Hoster's old memory of Tansy and the bed of blood. Which brings the fight between Petyr and Brandon to mind and that Petyr wouldn't yield to a better swordsman over the woman he loved. Which then brings Ned's comment that Ser Arthur would have killed him if it hadn't been for Howland to mind. Was the battle over and Ned refused to Yield to Ser Arthur? Did Howland save Ned from dying after Ser Arthur gave him the killing blow? Was Ned too low born to marry Ashara? Or was the woman he loved but couldn't marry, Lyanna? Is Jon Ashara's baby or Lyanna's baby? Is Ser Arthur alive? Then there is the parrallel between Tansy (Lysa) and the bed of blood and Ned's fever dream about Lyanna and her bed of blood. Is there a comparison to make between the two? As Catelyn surmises, Tansy is Lysa and she miscarries a bastard. Hoster tells her she will have other trueborn sons. He's frightened that there is so much blood. This is Petyr's child; the man Lysa loves. She is then married off to a man she doesn't love (Jon Arryn) to bind their houses in a war effort. This sounds like Lyanna's marriage to Robert, a man she doesn't love; to seal the houses in the war effort. But who is the man she loves? Is it Ned? Ser Arthur? Does Lyanna die from miscarriage with Ned by her side? There is plenty of imagery in the books associated with the pale stone sword and the star of the morning pointing to Jon. Which would bring us back to Ned and Ashara or Lyanna and Ser Arthur. The question is why did Lyanna disappear from Winterfell and where did she go? Did she die at Winterfell, a result of a miscarriage. Does this explain her disappearance? So what happened at the Tower of Joy if Ned lost the fight. Was everyone killed? Did Ser Arther send Ned and Howland back to Star Fall with his sword and the story that he was killed. Did he then tear town the ToJ or take some of the stone and build graves? Did he become the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle? Are the events at the ToJ a false story? There are some good parallels in here with a woman, basically having a forced abortion if she was forced to drink tansy moontea, and then being married to a man she doesn't love. And because of the Myrcella/Rosamun parallel in the Queenmaker chapter faking an illness in order to keep people away, I think the inversion is Lyanna with a fake illness, but with a real "medical" reason to keep people away may leave an opportunity for a forced abortion. She was promised to Robert, so Rickard would want that nasty detail to remain hidden. Could the following passage be interpreted as an abortion? Do we really believe she was holding rose petals? And how could her palm be dead and black immediately upon dying? Could the bolded line symbolize a dead baby?
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 12:04:00 GMT
Well I wonder about the promises she exacted from Ned. We only know of one; that she wanted to be buried in the crypts with her father and brother. And that Ned also keep the secret so she wouldn't also be shamed; probably the same secret she extracted from Brandon and Richard. So were the three promises really related to these three men?
I think this plot line holds together. Ned would never now tell Robert and Aerys has threatened both of them. So off to war.
I'm now very curious about the Edler Brother and the Quiet Isle. Might be something there too.
If Maester Walys administered the moon tea and Lyanna died as a result; it might explain why he disappears also.
The flowers could be a reference to the blue roses grown in the greenhouse; always her favorite.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 12:10:35 GMT
Do we really believe she was holding rose petals? And how could her palm be dead and black immediately upon dying? Could the bolded line symbolize a dead baby? Or did she yield and make peace with Ned? Something that Catelyn wants Lysa to do on Hoster's death bed and sends her a letter asking for her to come or send word to give him words of forgiveness to ease his passing. If Ser Arthur wasn't guarding Lyanna and was MIA in some of the battles and they were away South; who were they guarding? Ashara's son by Rhaegar? Why does Ned mix up Lyanna's death with the ToJ in his fever dream? Is his guilt and shame about trysting with Ashara at the Tourney while his sister was attacked? Did Ned also think there was a marriage contract in the future; something similar to Cersei and Rhaegar. But there wasn't enough on the table with a second son offered? Was Ser Arthur saddened that lovers had to be kept apart in the way Catelyn was saddened by her sister not being allowed to marry the man she loved. Does Ned have respect for Ser Artur because he didn't force Ashara to also have an abortion?
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 13:32:38 GMT
Is the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle; Ser Arthur's unknown older brother?
Ser Arthur Dayne, known as the Sword of the Morning, was a famed and legendary knight from House Dayne and a member of Aerys II Targaryen's Kingsguard. Many considered him to be the most chivalrous warrior of the Seven Kingdoms.[2] In the television adaptation Game of Thrones he is portrayed by Luke Roberts during a flashback in Season 6.
Arthur was Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's closest friend.[3] He was the brother of Lady Ashara Dayne and Lady Allyria Dayne. His nephew, the son from Arthur's unknown older brother, is Lord Edric Dayne.
The Elder Brother was the third son of a family of knights, and he had nothing to offer the woman he wanted to marry but the shield, sword and horse of his own knighthood. He fought for House Targaryen at the Battle of the Trident where he was knocked unconscious. Others thought him dead so they stripped his armor and possessions and dumped his body into the Trident. He floated downstream where he woke up naked on the Quiet Isle. He spent the next ten years in silence.[2]
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 12, 2016 14:02:14 GMT
Something else to mull on -
Of course, everyone attributes that last bit to Rhaegar dying at the Trident, but I'm not so sure.
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Post by jnr on Aug 12, 2016 14:05:31 GMT
everyone attributes that last bit to Rhaegar dying at the Trident, The fapp specifically states it, like many other aspects of RLJ that are (currently at least) fanfiction as opposed to canonical reality.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 14:07:17 GMT
I have to think that the Elder Brother is not Arthur Dayne and that Arthur was killed at the ToJ by Howland in defense of his lord. As any good squire i required to do. We have Pod and Tyrion for that example. Ned was losing and Arthur was about to deal the killing blow when Howland intervened. Ned's dream of the ghosts of Ser Arthur is usually a good indication that someone is dead or soon will be. And he also buries the body of Lady Dunstan husband, a bone of contention. Nobody can wield the Dawn Sword except Ser Arthur.
So why did Ned go to the ToJ if the war was over and it had nothing to do with Lyanna? Was it a matter of honor. Did Ned make a vow to his first love and then forced to break it? Did Ser Arthur also consider it a matter of honor that his sister gave birth to Ned's son? Was this a reckoning that was inevitable.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 14:11:23 GMT
Of course, everyone attributes that last bit to Rhaegar dying at the Trident, but I'm not so sure. Sounds like the Elder Brother story. Ned didn't see Ser Arthur at the Trident. So then, where is Rhaegar and what happened at the ToJ if Ser Arthur wasn't there either? I have to think that Rhaegar was killed. How could that be hidden from Robert. They must have confirmed his death. And Ned would certainly know Ser Arthur when he saw him. Perhaps the woman Rhaegar loved was his wife, Elia. Or Ashara, the woman he couldn't marry but only offer his sword and shield. In other words the three kingsguards and that's why they were away South. Did Rhaegar veto the Stark alliance with the Daynes? The battle at the ToJ has more of the feel of a trial by combat where the gods decide the outcome.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 14:40:09 GMT
everyone attributes that last bit to Rhaegar dying at the Trident, The fapp specifically states it, like many other aspects of RLJ that are (currently at least) fanfiction as opposed to canonical reality. Stripping armor and weapons from the fallen is a common practice in battle. Was Rheagar's body identified and then burned?
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