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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 14:58:13 GMT
So why then did Rhaegar crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Was it because he discovered the identity of the KoLT and knew she had been dishonored by the squires. Did she win the laurel herself by defending her own honor?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 12, 2016 15:17:25 GMT
IMO the three men at the tower of joy were not Kingsguard. I think since Ned was comparing real life to the dream that the three men were just ordinary men. Ned had no idea what happened to the three Kingsguard. He went through a list of places where they should have been, but he didn't see them. I think the attack at the tower happened, but since it's a dream I don't think we can take it for granted that this was the way it went down.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 15:21:10 GMT
Ned knows the Kingsguard when he sees them. He didn't find them during the Rebellion because they were acting as Rhaegar's sword and sheild for Ashara at Starfall.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 12, 2016 16:20:54 GMT
Something else to mull on - Of course, everyone attributes that last bit to Rhaegar dying at the Trident, but I'm not so sure. Whoa, I've been arguing about that fight scene for a couple of days now, and this parallel never even occurred to me. Now I read them side by side, it's amazing just how similar they are. As for who that other man could be that died in the river, I don't know. There was another prince present at the battle of the Trident, Lewyn Martell. Don't know what to do about the rubies though. Artistic license?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 12, 2016 16:48:18 GMT
So what happened at the Tower of Joy if Ned lost the fight. Was everyone killed? Did Ser Arther send Ned and Howland back to Star Fall with his sword and the story that he was killed. Did he then tear town the ToJ or take some of the stone and build graves? Did he become the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle? This is interesting because it is entirely possible that Arthur did survive the fight. Just so long as he stayed at the ToJ, then Martin's SSMs on the matter remain true. Does anyone remember that question one of the fans asked Martin during a Q&A that RLJ go pissed off about? The person asked something like how many people left the ToJ, and Martin answered 'only two people road away from the ToJ'? The person asking was trying to confirm whether Ned and Howland left with a third person, meaning Jon.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 17:21:30 GMT
I think connecting bit is hidden here:
The Elder Brother was the third son of a family of knights, and he had nothing to offer the woman he wanted to marry but the shield, sword and horse of his own knighthood. He fought for House Targaryen at the Battle of the Trident where he was knocked unconscious. Others thought him dead so they stripped his armor and possessions and dumped his body into the Trident. He floated downstream where he woke up naked on the Quiet Isle. He spent the next ten years in silence.
I think Rhaegar and Ser Arthur are both dead. The other connecting bit is calling out the name of the one you love and the theme that you can't marry the one you love. I think Rhaegar called out Ashara's name; that she is the one he couldn't marry but only offer his sword, shield and horse. The kingsguard swear their swords and shields to the the king and this case the heir apparant. They are missing from battle because they are are guarding Ashara for Rhaegar. This is all he can offer her. It's seems more likely to me that Ashara gave both Ned and Rhaegar a son. Because then Ned goes to Starfall with Arthur's sword. This is where he collects Jon, Ashara and Aegon. They travel to the sisters where they part company.
Lyanna died at Winterfell as a result of the events at the Tourney and a botched abortion. She was never at the ToJ. Robert didn't know what happened to Lyanna at Harrenhal. But being a hothead and jealous to boot; he thinks he has a rival in Rhaegar. So when she 'disappears' he gets it in his head that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Perhaps he heard a bit of gossip at the Tourney as well. Ned never corrects him since Richard, Ned, Brandon and Hoster Tully were all sworn to secrecy. And probably so did Petyr either witnessing and not helping or being the ringleader of the attack on Lyanna. This is why Brandon slit Petyr up the belly and why he was sent back to the Fingers.
Lyanna's promises have to do with keeping her secret because of the shame involved. She makes her peace with Ned just as Hoster tried to make peace with Tansy/Lysa in his fever dreams. The fight with Petyr and Brandon mirrors the fight with Arthur and Ned. He would have been Killed if it wasn't for Howland who was probably acting as his squire. This is mirrored by Pod who save Tyrion at the battle of Kingslanding. Pod also kills a kingsguard.
The kingsguard are acting as Reagar's sword and shield; the only thing he can offer the woman he loves, who is pregnant with his child... Ashara.
I think it's more likely that Rhaegar made Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty because he did find out the identity of the KotLT and he did know something about her dishonor at the hands of the squires. She won the laurel herself for defending her own honor. Something that Robert completely misinterprets and fuels his rage later.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 12, 2016 17:24:38 GMT
The fapp specifically states it, like many other aspects of RLJ that are (currently at least) fanfiction as opposed to canonical reality. I believe the fapp also specifically states that the murmured name is "Lyanna", although in all my time on all these forums I have seen exactly no one produce the quote from GRRM stating this or confirm the statement in any way beyond, "Well, the guy who created the app got the information from George." So, the fapp AND this part of the fapp in particular remains in 'Total BS' status for me until it is written in the actual books. Whoa, I've been arguing about that fight scene for a couple of days now, and this parallel never even occurred to me. Now I read them side by side, it's amazing just how similar they are. Right?!?!? I picked it up a long time ago, and go back and forth on the reason for the similarity: is the "dying prince" in the HotU vision actually Petyr Baelish and Dany is seeing this because it's relevant to her story, or is it indeed Rhaegar but GRRM has deliberately wordcrafted the scene in such a way to be a big flashing neon sign that says "PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, THE SIMILARITY IS SIGNIFICANT"? I can't decide. Another thing of note - not to cram my own stuff down anyone's throat, but in Marvel world, Littlefinger shares MANY, and I do mean MANY, commonalities with Loki, the Asgardian trickster god (a comparative bio that I really need to lay out for you guys). This is particularly interesting to me because as we know, Loki is Thor's adopted brother...not half brother as many assume, meaning shared blood, but a foster babe - a son of one of Odin's fallen enemies that Odin takes into his care to repay a debt. Thor's counterpart in ASOIAF is Rhaegar, and of course 90% of Thor's comic arc deals with his jealous foster brother trying to take him down in one way or another. I personally think that's going to be really relevant to ASOIAF, and the task will be figuring out whether or not Littlefinger/Loki actually has a connection to the Targaryens. Hoster Tully met Petyr's father while fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings; interestingly enough, that same war was a springboard for other noble sons, namely Aerys II Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, and Steffon Baratheon. I also don't think it's insignificant that this is also the war that supposedly brought the last of the male Blackfyre line to an end. My gut tells me that all of this is connected and Petyr Baelish is the dot in the center.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 17:30:32 GMT
Right?!?!? I picked it up a long time ago, and go back and forth on the reason for the similarity: is the "dying prince" in the HotU vision actually Petyr Baelish and Dany is seeing this because it's relevant to her story, or is it indeed Rhaegar but GRRM has deliberately wordcrafted the scene in such a way to be a big flashing neon sign that says "PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, THE SIMILARITY IS SIGNIFICANT"? I can't decide. If we can only resolve things with a subjective interpretation; then I think we have to look at what is repeated and why. I tend to go with the most straight forward explanation that holds together; that has some corrobation in the text. Whether that provides a frame fot interpreting the text or there are connecting elements to things that are repeated that provide an explanation that makes sense. ***** Ned is like Petyr; he wouldn't yield to a superior swordsman and make peace.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 12, 2016 17:50:01 GMT
Another thing of note - not to cram my own stuff down anyone's throat, but in Marvel world, Littlefinger shares MANY, and I do mean MANY, commonalities with Loki, the Asgardian trickster god (a comparative bio that I really need to lay out for you guys). This is particularly interesting to me because as we know, Loki is Thor's adopted brother...not half brother as many assume, meaning shared blood, but a foster babe - a son of one of Odin's fallen enemies that Odin takes into his care to repay a debt. Thor's counterpart in ASOIAF is Rhaegar, and of course 90% of Thor's comic arc deals with his jealous foster brother trying to take him down in one way or another. I personally think that's going to be really relevant to ASOIAF, and the task will be figuring out whether or not Littlefinger/Loki actually has a connection to the Targaryens. Hoster Tully met Petyr's father while fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings; interestingly enough, that same war was a springboard for other noble sons, namely Aerys II Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, and Steffon Baratheon. I also don't think it's insignificant that this is also the war that supposedly brought the last of the male Blackfyre line to an end. My gut tells me that all of this is connected and Petyr Baelish is the dot in the center. If Petyr is Loki he took out Rhaegar/Thor early in his "career" seeing that Petyr was probably only 16-17 years old at the time of Rhaegar's death. I think this would make more sense if Robert were Thor since Petyr spent more years undermining Robert and his Hand Jon Arryn. Petyr is a major player and is likely responsible for pulling the unseen strings that have lead to the fall of House Stark. He finally got his revenge on Rickard and Brandon, but will it extend to Sansa? Or has he become enamored with her as the new and improved Cat?
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 18:07:07 GMT
Another thing of note - not to cram my own stuff down anyone's throat, but in Marvel world, Littlefinger shares MANY, and I do mean MANY, commonalities with Loki, the Asgardian trickster god (a comparative bio that I really need to lay out for you guys). This is particularly interesting to me because as we know, Loki is Thor's adopted brother...not half brother as many assume, meaning shared blood, but a foster babe - a son of one of Odin's fallen enemies that Odin takes into his care to repay a debt. Thor's counterpart in ASOIAF is Rhaegar, and of course 90% of Thor's comic arc deals with his jealous foster brother trying to take him down in one way or another. I personally think that's going to be really relevant to ASOIAF, and the task will be figuring out whether or not Littlefinger/Loki actually has a connection to the Targaryens. Hoster Tully met Petyr's father while fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings; interestingly enough, that same war was a springboard for other noble sons, namely Aerys II Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, and Steffon Baratheon. I also don't think it's insignificant that this is also the war that supposedly brought the last of the male Blackfyre line to an end. My gut tells me that all of this is connected and Petyr Baelish is the dot in the center. If Petyr is Loki he took out Rhaegar/Thor early in his "career" seeing that Petyr was probably only 16-17 years old at the time of Rhaegar's death. I think this would make more sense if Robert were Thor since Petyr spent more years undermining Robert and his Hand Jon Arryn. Petyr is a major player and is likely responsible for pulling the unseen strings that have lead to the fall of House Stark. He finally got his revenge on Rickard and Brandon, but will it extend to Sansa? Or has he become enamored with her as the new and improved Cat? Can we put this into another thread. Because I have a lot to add to that as a separate discussion.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 12, 2016 18:17:01 GMT
If Petyr is Loki he took out Rhaegar/Thor early in his "career" seeing that Petyr was probably only 16-17 years old at the time of Rhaegar's death. I think this would make more sense if Robert were Thor since Petyr spent more years undermining Robert and his Hand Jon Arryn. Petyr is a major player and is likely responsible for pulling the unseen strings that have lead to the fall of House Stark. He finally got his revenge on Rickard and Brandon, but will it extend to Sansa? Or has he become enamored with her as the new and improved Cat? Can we put this into another thread. Because I have a lot to add to that as a separate discussion. Sure. Feel free! If you start the thread I can move the relevant posts.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 18:21:53 GMT
Some Pig's idea. I'll leave it up to her. But I'm curious about how Petyr came to be the person he is now. As I've said, I have my suspicions about the dwarf maester who served at the fingers and the smiling face concealing a dark heart. Petyr may have professed his love for Catelyn; but he was boinking Lysa all the while. I even wonder if Petyr is some bastard of Tywin's born in a brothel and foisted off on a lowly knight in a backwater House with the smallest stipend possible.
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 20:54:21 GMT
Wow! Think about it. Rhaegar doesn't just sent a sword, shield and horse to protect Ashara; He sends his best sword (Ser Arthur), the best shield and the best horse. You don't do that for Ned's son; but to protect your own offspring. If the three knights had been in battle with Rhaegar at the Triden; he might not have lost.
I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 23:01:22 GMT
Feast for Crows Brienne VI - Brienne is talking to Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle
"He is at rest." (Sandor Clegane) "You are young child. I have counted four-and-forty name days ... which makes me more than twice your age, I think. Would it surprise you to learn that I was once a knight?"
"No. You look more like a knight than you do a holy man." It was written in his chest and shoulders, and across that thick square jaw. "Why would you give up knighthood?"
"I never chose it. My father was a knight, and his before him. So ere my brothers, every one. I was trained for battle since the day they deemed me old enough to hold a wooden sword. I saw my share of them, and did not disgrace myself. I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force. There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord, but I was my father's third born son and had neither land nor wealth to offer her ... only a sword, a horse, a shield. All in all, I was a sad man. When I was not fighting, I was drunk. My life was writ in blood and wind."
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Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 23:38:06 GMT
A Storm of Swords Bran III:
Meera tells Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and although there is no physical description of the squires of their knight other than their size and their sigils; she does make one curious comment:
"This isn't going to be one of those love stories, is it?" Bran asked suspiciously. "Hodor doesn't like those so much." "Hodor," said Hodor agreeably. "He likes the stories where the knights fight monsters." "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran."
Meera tells him the tale and then about the disappearance of the KotT and that the dragon prince won the tourney in the end.
"Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and the the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."
"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."
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