|
Post by min on Aug 12, 2016 23:41:50 GMT
So is it possible that the Elder Brother was the knight who was a monster at the Tourney and Petyr was his squire? Did he force Lyanna, the daughter of a petty lord and was he disgraced by the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Is this the matter of honor between Ned and Arthur Dayne? Was Elder Brother a Knight in the service of Boros Blount a member of the kingsguard? The Porcupine Knight a prickly beast?
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Aug 13, 2016 2:13:51 GMT
I believe the fapp also specifically states that the murmured name is "Lyanna", although in all my time on all these forums I have seen exactly no one produce the quote from GRRM stating this or confirm the statement in any way beyond, "Well, the guy who created the app got the information from George." So, the fapp AND this part of the fapp in particular remains in 'Total BS' status for me until it is written in the actual books. Completely agree. And I'll be happy to call it the app instead of the fapp once it's demonstrated that Ran didn't F the whole thing up.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 2:29:51 GMT
Another thing of note - not to cram my own stuff down anyone's throat, but in Marvel world, Littlefinger shares MANY, and I do mean MANY, commonalities with Loki, the Asgardian trickster god (a comparative bio that I really need to lay out for you guys). This is particularly interesting to me because as we know, Loki is Thor's adopted brother...not half brother as many assume, meaning shared blood, but a foster babe - a son of one of Odin's fallen enemies that Odin takes into his care to repay a debt. Thor's counterpart in ASOIAF is Rhaegar, and of course 90% of Thor's comic arc deals with his jealous foster brother trying to take him down in one way or another. I personally think that's going to be really relevant to ASOIAF, and the task will be figuring out whether or not Littlefinger/Loki actually has a connection to the Targaryens. Hoster Tully met Petyr's father while fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings; interestingly enough, that same war was a springboard for other noble sons, namely Aerys II Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, and Steffon Baratheon. I also don't think it's insignificant that this is also the war that supposedly brought the last of the male Blackfyre line to an end. My gut tells me that all of this is connected and Petyr Baelish is the dot in the center. I have a feeling that Pe-tyr is connected to the Lannisters a bastard son of Tywin. Petyr sounds like Pater; the latin for father. I get the feeling he was born in a brothel and ended up fostered by a lowly knight in a backwater house with no resources. That would be just like Tywin. How did he become master of coin? But this in another thread. LOL
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 2:38:39 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 2:39:40 GMT
And I'll be happy to call it the app instead of the fapp once it's demonstrated that Ran didn't F the whole thing up. Or when it's proved to do more than just stroke those that get off on the idea
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Aug 13, 2016 14:05:53 GMT
Yeah, I have to say I have my doubts about fapp assertions like... there was a rumor that Rhaegar and Lyanna could be found at an abandoned watchtower in Dorne, so Aerys sent Hightower there to retrieve Rhaegar.
Just makes no sense to me. If Aerys knew this high-value hostage Lyanna Stark were there, would he leave her there, instead of use her to force Ned to stand down? If he wanted to get a message to Rhaegar, would he use the Lord Commander of the KG as his messenger? Why is it that Jaime, thinking back on this time, has no memory of it and only recalls Rhaegar "returning from the south?" Also, if Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and could retrieve him at will, what was the point of making JonConn his Hand?
Etc, etc. Just a hideous mess. It does, however, massage the naughty bits of those who had previously theorized along these lines.
|
|
|
Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 13, 2016 21:14:55 GMT
Yeah, I have to say I have my doubts about fapp assertions like... there was a rumor that Rhaegar and Lyanna could be found at an abandoned watchtower in Dorne, so Aerys sent Hightower there to retrieve Rhaegar. Just makes no sense to me. If Aerys knew this high-value hostage Lyanna Stark were there, would he leave her there, instead of use her to force Ned to stand down? If he wanted to get a message to Rhaegar, would he use the Lord Commander of the KG as his messenger? Why is it that Jaime, thinking back on this time, has no memory of it and only recalls Rhaegar "returning from the south?" Also, if Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and could retrieve him at will, what was the point of making JonConn his Hand? Etc, etc. Just a hideous mess. It does, however, massage the naughty bits of those who had previously theorized along these lines. Oh crap that's how bad its gotten? People are proposing there were rumors of Rhaegar and Lyanna in an abandoned watchtower in Dorne? JNR probably we aren't astute enough to percieve the sense in that reasoning. You know, Jamie having no memory will be seen as him not mentioning it which will end in proponents usuall cry of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." I swear i have to do a thread about how ridiculous that as a counter truly is. You bring up a point about this secret(s) surrounding Rhaegar and Lyanna. When it comes down to it with the most rudimentary observation if true is the worst kept secret(s) in the history of keeping secret.I put that up there with Bradley Cooper being a Democrat. My fellow Americans will get that.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Aug 13, 2016 21:44:25 GMT
I put that up there with Bradley Cooper being a Democrat. My fellow Americans will get that. I don't much care what his political beliefs are...I just like looking at him.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 21:49:28 GMT
I put that up there with Bradley Cooper being a Democrat. My fellow Americans will get that. I don't much care what his political beliefs are...I just like looking at him. Oh him! I had google that one. I always consult actors before I make political decisions.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 5:01:23 GMT
Another curious statement by Ned in GoT. Ned and Robert are in the crypts. They are talking about Lysa and her son and Robert's plan to ward him with Tywin Lannister.
"Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by a woman?"
Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal and bleed again at the slightest word. "The wife has lost the husband," he said carefully. "Perhaps the other feared to lose the son. The boy is very young."
I think there are a few meanings that can be applied to Ned's memories and feelings.
1) Entrusting a ward to a pit viper. Since we are talking about men, a viper could be a man from Dorne. A pit viper a fighting man in the pits as in a melee in a tourney. This could be referring to Petyr entrusted to a man from Dorne at the Tourney as Some Pig mentioned is the custom for squires to be assigned to other knights. Again this might point to the unknown brother of Arthur Dayne who may have fought for the Targaryens under House Blount (the Porcupine Knight at the tourney). Or a prickly beast as Petyr refers to Ned. Elder Brother tells Brienne that he had dishonored himself and forced women including one he wanted to marry from a house of low importance. The younger daughter of the Lord. But he was a third son and had nothing to offer her but sword, shield and horse. This isn't Lyanna but Lyssa Tulley who's father Hoster was a travelling man and sometimes took his ward and daughters with him. They would certainly have gone with him to the Harrenhal Tourney with all the luminaries that would be in attendance. This is the Tansy episode that Hoster talks about in his delirium. Lyssa's forced miscarriage and the bed of blood. Catelyn thinks of it as the first time Lyssa lost a child. This would explain what happened with Petyr if he was the Porcupine Knight's squire for the time.
2) The second take away is around the question of leaving a woman to raise a child. Robert is referring to Lysa; but since Ned's memories of his sister are in the forefront of his mind; he answers cautiously as to give away no emotion; that perhaps the woman had lost a husband and was afraid of losing a child. I think he is referring to Ashara losing Ned as a husband. Catelyn surmised by his reaction to her question about it that he must have loved her greatly. I think she gave both Ned and Rhaegar a son. So she gave Ned his own son and kept Rhaegar's son in exchange for Rhaegar's son life. Rhaegar also loved a woman he couldn't marry (Ashara); and like the Elder Brother; he could only offer his sword, shield and horse for her protection. He literally gives her the three Kingsguards for her protection binding them with a vow. This is the old wound that can open at the slightest word.
3) Robert also complain about Lyanna buried in the crypt instead of under the sky.
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the King. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father. He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint a a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After then he remembered nothing.
They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers."
So Lyanna makes Ned promise to bury her in the crypts with Rickard and Brandon who are already dead. She must not have died at Winterfell. Was she being hidden by Ned to keep her safe from Aerys at Greywater Watch with the Howland Reed where nobody can find you? Did she die of greywater fever? A sickness that almost killed Jojen and for which Lyanna had no immunity.
This also means that Lyanna was not raped or pregnant but won the laurel for defending her Aunt's honor. The singular event that started the war.
4) If Lyanna did die in a bed of blood or birthing bed; then it's possible that Meera is her daughter and that she loved Howland. The promises she extracts from Ned would then have something to do with forgiveness and acceptance. Yielding and making peace. The sadder tale of Meera's story.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 12:41:26 GMT
If Lyanna died of greywater fever; could she have had the ability to green dream? Since we're considering the possibility that Ned, Benjen and Lyanna has some abilities in that area. I still wonder how Ned ended up meeting Ser Arthur at the ToJ. If the three kingsguards were vowed to protect Ashara and her sons; went missing at all the battles in Robert's Rebellion; then this is a secret that was meant to be kept. I can see Ser Arthur getting advanced information about the whereabouts of Ned's party and going to the ToJ to cut them off. I don't imagine that they would have been decked out in their armor for all to see most of the time. But how did Ned know to go to the ToJ.
So I wonder about Lyanna's fever and what promises Ned agreed to keep. Taking Lyanna home and burying her in the crypts would have been the least difficult promise to make.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 13:20:30 GMT
I'm trying to find the passage in the book where Ned actually tears down the ToJ and builds 10 cairns. The wiki point to GoT Eddard 10. I don't see that spelled out there at all. It also specifically says that Lyanna was in the Tower and points and points to The World of Ice and Fire. That link is all about Ran's app and says nothing about Lyanna. awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_JoySo if we have the expectation that Lyanna was in the ToJ (which she wasn't); then it has to be a structure that can be lived in to some extent. Like the painting in wiki. How is it that only Ned and Howland can tear that structure down to build the cairns. Rhaegar apparently named it the ToJ. I think the tower was an old watchtower already broken and falling apart. The trysting place for Ashara and Rhaeger who then names it the ToJ. For Ned, it's the broken ToJ and the reason they could pull the rest of the tower down to build the cairns. A watchtower is a type of fortification used in many parts of the world. It differs from a regular tower in that its primary use is military, and from a turret in that it is usually a freestanding structure. Its main purpose is to provide a high, safe place from which a sentinel or guard may observe the surrounding area. In some cases, non-military towers, such as religious pagodas, may also be used as watchtowers. - wikipedia Watchtower - Hadrian's Wall
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Aug 14, 2016 16:34:07 GMT
I'm trying to find the passage in the book where Ned actually tears down the ToJ and builds 10 cairns. Eight cairns, for the three KG and the five of Ned's companions who died. This is a waking memory and not subject to the fever dream's surrealism.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 17:12:04 GMT
This is a waking memory and not subject to the fever dream's surrealism. Yes 8 cairns. I mixed that up with Edddard X. That's a good description of Ned's fever dream in which he mixes up the fight with the kingsguard and memories of Lyanna's death. So I wonder why they are connected in his mind. What one has to do with the other. Something Lyanna told him, something to do with his promises.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Aug 14, 2016 17:24:45 GMT
I think Ned is mixing his memories of Lyanna and Ashara up. Maybe their deaths were similar?
|
|