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Post by Melifeather on Aug 17, 2016 20:01:11 GMT
GRRM did say that we could figure this out in the very first book...
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 17, 2016 20:23:50 GMT
I agree Arthur is involved somehow, but I still think Lyanna and Ashara trade places and that may be Littlefinger's doings, but it also could have been Arthur's doings. If Ashara was the one that was sent abroad this would explain how Dany looks like Ashara, and how Ashara is now Septa Lemore.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 17, 2016 23:58:36 GMT
Ned's return trip to Winterfell consumes many months.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 18, 2016 1:15:41 GMT
Ned's return trip to Winterfell consumes many months. Think that's because Ned was trying to figure out where whores go?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 1:26:25 GMT
....aaand the inspiration for the quote, Tysha. Whose forced transformation into a whore came courtesy of Tywin Lannister, and who was raped by how many hundreds of times.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 18, 2016 1:35:59 GMT
If Lyanna changed places with Ashara, and Ashara was sold to slavers, she likely was sold by Ser Jorah. He probably was paid handsomely for the dirty deed.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 1:38:15 GMT
If Lyanna changed places with Ashara, and Ashara was sold to slavers, she likely was sold by Ser Jorah. He probably was paid handsomely for the dirty deed. I agree Jorah was involved in human trafficking. Absolutely.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 2:22:37 GMT
To drive the lesson home, Tywin forced his son to be the last man, for whom Tysha was paid a gold coin, because Lannisters were worth more. Driving the lesson home...not unlike Varys driving the lesson home with Petyr; Petyr driving the lesson home with Sansa "A virgin prostitute's maidenhead can cost a golden dragon."- wiki Meaning Tyrion was the virgin prostitute. And I wonder how Petyr came by his silver as a boy. Varys was forced to prostitute himself until he met Illyrio.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 2:49:02 GMT
He (Petyr) would later claim to have taken the maidenhood of both Tully sisters, due to his belief that his first encounter with Lysa had actually been with Catelyn- wiki Referring to the time Petyr went to bed drunk and Lysa went to his bed. He then calls her Cat as he falls asleep.
Then there is Cersei's story that a drunken Robert called her Lyanna on their wedding night. Cersei calls her insipid: bland, wishy-washy, lacklustre, tedious, boring.... Jon makes the same comment about Myrcella when they process for the King's Feast at Winterfell.
I wonder if any Lions feasted with the wolves at the Tourney of Harrenhall.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 18, 2016 2:57:04 GMT
I wonder if any Lions feasted with the wolves at the Tourney of Harrenhall. The passage of Ned and Cersei in the godswood as he is telling her to flee with her children has a lot of intimate subtext to it. I know many people on the forums have wondered if they may have had an encounter at some point in time.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 12:22:01 GMT
I wonder if any Lions feasted with the wolves at the Tourney of Harrenhall. The passage of Ned and Cersei in the godswood as he is telling her to flee with her children has a lot of intimate subtext to it. I know many people on the forums have wondered if they may have had an encounter at some point in time. I wouldn't put it past Cersei to seduce Ned while he was drunk; say at a tourney. Maybe call out another name. aSoS Arya VIII
It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. "Where do you think you are going, milady? You shouldn't run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things." "I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said..." "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are you now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered inn a tent of a night. Who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more. But where's the harm in that? Spring had come or so they thought and neither one of them was pledged."
"She killed herself, though," Arya said uncertainly. "Ned said she jumped from the tower into the sea." "So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "But that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie .... and please, when we come to Riverrun, say not of this to your mother." While I think there is truth to the story that Ned and Ashara fell in love at the Tourney; it's possible that Cersei seduced Ned and he called out Ashara's name during their passion. She tries this seduction again in the Godswood and flings Ashara's name at him when he rejects her advances. I think it's possible that letting a lie stand about the identities of Wylla, Ashara and Lyanna could be at play in this version of the story. It seems that Wylla isn't as common a name as you would think. Wylla Manderly is the mirror. A Dance with Dragons - wiki
When Ser Davos Seaworth appears in the Merman's Court before her grandfather, Lord Wyman Manderly, Wylla is standing behind him with her sister, Wynafryd. Davos tells Lord Manderly that King Stannis Baratheon can offer them vengeance, and she pipes out "yes" and states: “ They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb. He was our king! He was brave and good and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis. ”
Her grandfather tries to quiet Wylla by threatening to send her to the silent sisters. She will not be silenced and goes on to tell of the promises of loyalty House Manderly made to House Stark. Finally, her mother, Lady Leona, has to drag her from the hall. Rhaegar Frey and Lord Wyman agree she is to marry Little Walder Frey.[4]
However, when Lord Wyman reveals his true feelings about the Freys to Davos later, he calls Wylla very brave.
A character who sounds very much like Lyanna and Arya in spirit. If Rhaegar or Ser Arthur found Lyanna in a brothel and brought her back to Starfall under an assumed name; could it be Wylla? If Wylla/Lya is Jon Snow's mother; then possibly Jon's father can't be known; or Tywin Lannister is his father.
If Ned confused Cersei with Ashara; then Ashara could be another assumed identity or confused identity in the story. That she jumped off the tower and her body was never found. She died because of grief. Her brother had been killed because of her. She died in a bed of blood. Her bones were taken back to Winterfell.
"Somebody talks.... somebody always talks." - Areo Hotah
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 13:15:51 GMT
Letting the lie stand goes back to the idea that the world must believe the boy is dead and doesn't come looking. Lyanna may be a part of the deception to hide the boy. The boy being Aegon, son of Ashara and Rhaegar. Lyanna assuming the identity of Ashara to cover for her disappearance and Wylla to cover for Lyanna's disappearance. This might explain why the boy dies his hair blue, to honor his mother. Why Lyanna pleads with Ned not to harm to boy and why Rhaegar can only offer Lyanna/Ashara his sword, shield and horse. Rhaegar calling out Lyanna's name a tribute to her; the Knight of the Laughing Tree; for courage, for honor, for truth, for her suffering.
ETA: If Cersei knew Lyanna's location; it would stand that she also knew that Ser Arthur Dayne took her out of the brothel. So we get the sarcastic comment about Ned still being in love with his sister Ashara. She might well conclude that Ser Arthur took Lyanna back to Starfall. And If Cersei knew Lyanna's location; Lyanna would need protection from her.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 13:46:09 GMT
To continue spit-balling...
If Cersei seduced Ned while he was drunk at the tourney; did he also talk? Isn't this the way Petyr collects his information in the brothels? What of Cersei's first pregnancy; the one she claims she miscarried?
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 14:18:24 GMT
Does this scene between Catelyn and Cersei ever occur in the book. I can't find it. Is it something GRRM suggested for HBO Season 1. Was Cersei in love with Ned at one point? It's in stark contrast to what she tells Ned in the book; when she attempts to seduce him. She lifted her head, defiant. "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew." - Eddard XIIwww.youtube.com/watch?v=iN6HGoeKWrA&index=2&list=PLQ9rNuZ0XC3cfPz5cqqv1EwlFABU793fTThe Truth be told:"If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for hi to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber. Whatever we do, the king is usually *so drunk that he's forgotten all by the next morning."
How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of the all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick.
"I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"
Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
And possibly the thing that Ned doesn't remember because he stank of wine; was whispering Ashara in Cersei's ear. As Hullen points out to Arya, what harm can whispering do?
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. I do not know which of you I pity most. (Lyanna or Cersei?)
The queen seemed amused by that. 'Save your pity for yourself, Lord Stark. I want none of it."
"You know what I must do."
"Must?" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh the gentlest of promises. The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." Her hand touched his face, his hair. "If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Mirroring past and present. Once they were friends.
Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it. Is the sister still in love with the brother? Does the queen need a strong hand?
"Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?"
She slapped him. (No.)
"Honor," she spat. (Sarc/on) "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant your raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? (Wylla/Lyanna) Or was it the grieving sister, the lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. (Ashara/Lyanna) *Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? (Bandon/Jon) Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
*Somebody talks.... somebody always talks.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 18, 2016 15:30:27 GMT
Her grandfather tries to quiet Wylla by threatening to send her to the silent sisters. She will not be silenced and goes on to tell of the promises of loyalty House Manderly made to House Stark. Finally, her mother, Lady Leona, has to drag her from the hall. Rhaegar Frey and Lord Wyman agree she is to marry Little Walder Frey.[4] However, when Lord Wyman reveals his true feelings about the Freys to Davos later, he calls Wylla very brave. A character who sounds very much like Lyanna and Arya in spirit. If Rhaegar or Ser Arthur found Lyanna in a brothel and brought her back to Starfall under an assumed name; could it be Wylla? If Wylla/Lya is Jon Snow's mother; then possibly Jon's father can't be known; or Tywin Lannister is his father.This would support my idea that Wylla is Lyanna...not Wylla Manderly, but Jon's mother Wylla. =) Was Cersei in love with Ned at one point? Cersei doesn't love anybody but herself, but she uses her sex to get what she wants.
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