|
Post by ac on Sept 7, 2016 18:06:33 GMT
It appears that midway into the war, Aerys had Elia and her children summoned to King's Landing so he could manipulate Dorne. From ASOS, we have: The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.This, btw, gives us excellent insight into Aerys' state of mind and approach to solving military/diplomatic problems, and makes it extremely hard to believe that (per the fapp), • Aerys knew Lyanna was at the ToJ because he sent Hightower there, to bring back Rhaegar • Aerys knew Rhaegar had lost at the Trident • Aerys did not, at any time, try to retrieve Lyanna to use her as a hostage to manipulate the North and Robert, both of whom Aerys knew to be intensely invested in Lyanna's welfare My theory on this is that Aerys was responsible for the kidnapping of Lyanna (although I doubt he did it personally) as a way to drive a wedge between Rhaegar and the Starks / Baratheons. Whether or not Lyanna was at the ToJ, I certainly doubt she was there the whole time. I also think that Aerys probably did have plans to use Lyanna as a hostage but he did not get the chance. Possibly because she was too ill to move but also because he didn't really believe he was in danger until after Tywin had entered KL and betrayed him.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 7, 2016 19:45:09 GMT
This, btw, gives us excellent insight into Aerys' state of mind and approach to solving military/diplomatic problems, and makes it extremely hard to believe that (per the fapp), • Aerys knew Lyanna was at the ToJ because he sent Hightower there, to bring back Rhaegar • Aerys knew Rhaegar had lost at the Trident • Aerys did not, at any time, try to retrieve Lyanna to use her as a hostage to manipulate the North and Robert, both of whom Aerys knew to be intensely invested in Lyanna's welfare The last point cemented the end of my Aerys had Lyanna kidnapped theory (sorry ac mate). If Aerys had any inkling as to where Lyanna was she'd have been shipped directly to King's Landing to remain in Aerys hands. The rebellion would've turned into a hostage situation. However, there is the slimmest of chances that he did find out and sent Hightower after her, not just Rhaegar, meaning find both of them and make good my hostage and my son's loyalty. Not necessarily with having both in the same place. Hightower then takes his orders from Rhaegar and joins the other two KGs for as yet unknown reasons. That said, applying or inferring anything more than Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar is adding to canon. We don't even know if he found Rhaegar because we are never told that he did. All we know is that he ended up with his brothers in the south, but we don't know how or why. And we know that Rhaegar returned from the south. Sure the implication is that they did indeed find each other, but there is no proof.
|
|
|
Post by ac on Sept 7, 2016 22:09:38 GMT
The last point cemented the end of my Aerys had Lyanna kidnapped theory (sorry ac mate). If Aerys had any inkling as to where Lyanna was she'd have been shipped directly to King's Landing to remain in Aerys hands. The rebellion would've turned into a hostage situation. However, there is the slimmest of chances that he did find out and sent Hightower after her, not just Rhaegar, meaning find both of them and make good my hostage and my son's loyalty. Not necessarily with having both in the same place. Hightower then takes his orders from Rhaegar and joins the other two KGs for as yet unknown reasons. Haha, no worries. Of course I disagree . I think it is possible that until Robert's victory at the Battle of the Bells Aerys still considered Rhaegar to be his biggest threat and so considered it more valuable to maintain the rouse that Rhaegar was the kidnapper. It would also be reasonable for him to have assumed that even if Rhaegar lost at the Trident, he was safely locked up in King's Landing and would have time to play his hostage card then. This would also be a good reason for him to send 3 of his best KG to guard his ace in the hole. There are also 2 other options that I think a valid: - He did send for Lyanna as a hostage but she was too sick to be moved. Her being pregnant with his son (even a bastard) would have added to the concern about moving her.
- Rhaegar really was in love with Lyanna and her kidnapping / imprisonment by Aerys was a way of keeping him in check.
One other thing, just to put it out there, my current guess on where in "the South" Rhaegar was is the ruins of Summerhall. A place that is specifically mentioned as somewhere he likes to go alone and think (although I am not sure if this is from the novels or just the WB).
|
|
|
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 7, 2016 23:53:33 GMT
The last point cemented the end of my Aerys had Lyanna kidnapped theory (sorry ac mate). If Aerys had any inkling as to where Lyanna was she'd have been shipped directly to King's Landing to remain in Aerys hands. The rebellion would've turned into a hostage situation. However, there is the slimmest of chances that he did find out and sent Hightower after her, not just Rhaegar, meaning find both of them and make good my hostage and my son's loyalty. Not necessarily with having both in the same place. Hightower then takes his orders from Rhaegar and joins the other two KGs for as yet unknown reasons. Haha, no worries. Of course I disagree . I think it is possible that until Robert's victory at the Battle of the Bells Aerys still considered Rhaegar to be his biggest threat and so considered it more valuable to maintain the rouse that Rhaegar was the kidnapper. It would also be reasonable for him to have assumed that even if Rhaegar lost at the Trident, he was safely locked up in King's Landing and would have time to play his hostage card then. This would also be a good reason for him to send 3 of his best KG to guard his ace in the hole. There are also 2 other options that I think a valid: - He did send for Lyanna as a hostage but she was too sick to be moved. Her being pregnant with his son (even a bastard) would have added to the concern about moving her.
- Rhaegar really was in love with Lyanna and her kidnapping / imprisonment by Aerys was a way of keeping him in check.
One other thing, just to put it out there, my current guess on where in "the South" Rhaegar was is the ruins of Summerhall. A place that is specifically mentioned as somewhere he likes to go alone and think (although I am not sure if this is from the novels or just the WB). The quote you are thinking of is from ASOS where Barristan reminisces that "Yes, and yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the Knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilight saga and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved." But it's unlikely that Rhaegar was there at least during the start of the rebellion, because a major battle was fought there: "My brother (Robert) had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners."
|
|
|
Post by ac on Sept 8, 2016 0:19:04 GMT
Haha, no worries. Of course I disagree . I think it is possible that until Robert's victory at the Battle of the Bells Aerys still considered Rhaegar to be his biggest threat and so considered it more valuable to maintain the rouse that Rhaegar was the kidnapper. It would also be reasonable for him to have assumed that even if Rhaegar lost at the Trident, he was safely locked up in King's Landing and would have time to play his hostage card then. This would also be a good reason for him to send 3 of his best KG to guard his ace in the hole. There are also 2 other options that I think a valid: - He did send for Lyanna as a hostage but she was too sick to be moved. Her being pregnant with his son (even a bastard) would have added to the concern about moving her.
- Rhaegar really was in love with Lyanna and her kidnapping / imprisonment by Aerys was a way of keeping him in check.
One other thing, just to put it out there, my current guess on where in "the South" Rhaegar was is the ruins of Summerhall. A place that is specifically mentioned as somewhere he likes to go alone and think (although I am not sure if this is from the novels or just the WB). The quote you are thinking of is from ASOS where Barristan reminisces that "Yes, and yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the Knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilight saga and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved." But it's unlikely that Rhaegar was there at least during the start of the rebellion, because a major battle was fought there: "My brother (Robert) had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners." Sorry for the huge quote but I am on my phone and couldn't select the bit I wanted. Thanks for including the Selmy quote, that is exactly what I was referring too. Happy to see it is from ASOS. And no I don't think he was there for the whole rebellion. In fact, I think it is likely he returned and spent at least some time at KL between the False Spring and the Battle of the Bells. Of course there is no evidence of that in text.
|
|
|
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 8, 2016 1:09:59 GMT
One of the things that this thread has made me consider is the idea that Rhaegar may not have actually had any children of his own. Also, GRRM loves wonky solutions to prophecies. TPTWP is premised on the idea that he/she would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. It wouldn't surprise me if TPTWP turns out to be multiple persons, perhaps one from Aerys line and one from Rhaella, but not born to both. I've theorized that Aerys may have been the actual father to Elia and perhaps Oberyn. We know that Rhaella was a bit miffed that he whored around with her ladies in waiting. GRRM is hinting too strongly that it was with Joanna, so I wonder if he is deflecting suspicion to the lady in waiting he was truly having a fling with, Doran's mother, the unnamed princess in Dorne. Which may explain why Aerys consents to allowing Rhaegar to marry Elia, when he previously sent Steffon on a fruitless search to find a suitably Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. Elia may end up sufficing if Aerys knows that she is his daughter. Now if Oberyn is Aerys son as well... It would be very Targaryen of Elia and Oberyn to have a couple of kids together. One kid with their dominant Dornish genes and one kid with their recessive Targaryen ones. So perhaps Aegon was actually the son of Oberyn and Elia. Crackpot I know. So then I would turn to Rahella, and wonder if perhaps she had a child with a different father. Perhaps Gerold Hightower, who was so eager to return to King's Landing to guard the queen, in lieu of Jaime?? Perhaps with a Lord Velaryon, who had at least one bastard son who reminded Cersei of Rhaegar?
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2016 2:17:42 GMT
One of the things that this thread has made me consider is the idea that Rhaegar may not have actually had any children of his own. Ditto to this. There's also the gayness factor to consider. Something else that I've pondered on is why Aerys allowed Elia to marry in the first place, knowing that she was frail and not in the best reproductive health. Her mother had multiple miscarriages, IIRC, and two sons that died in infancy, and it's possible that even Mama Martell's mother had troubles as well, so I'm sure it was thought that Elia might have the same issue..... which may have been exactly what Aerys was going for. Marry the smart and capable golden son that he's been butting heads with off to the sickly Dornish princess, in hopes that the son produces no viable heirs. Then, Aerys could groom Viserys for eventual marriage and rule. It would be very Targaryen of Elia and Oberyn to have a couple of kids together. Totally, and this was the first thing that came to mind when the WB laid out that bit about baby Rhaenys "smelling Dornish".
|
|
|
Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 8, 2016 2:19:23 GMT
I can't add anything, but I am reading with interest. Timelines always confuse me. Does this suggest that fAegon is a a baby switch? The son of Elia a changeling. Also did Rhaegar and Arthur split up at some point around their sojourn to Harrenhall? I think I read that they parted company at some point. If so, is it possible that Arthur came across Lyanna. Because if he did, then this might go aways to explain Ned's reverence for him. In the manner of a true knight as Brienne will tell you; duty bound to protect the weak and defenseless. If Lyanna was attacked by Twyin's minions; the three dishonored knights of the Tourney; I can see Arthur rushing her off to the Saltpans for medical assistance, possibly even a childbirth. Since we have Dany going through a similar experience. I still have to go with Robert as father. Even if Lyanna was preggers before the tourney; then sent off with Maester Walys perhaps with Benjen's knowledge. Who knows what kind of Pink Letter Maester Walys recieved to hoodwink poor Benjen. So could we have Lyanna on the way to Castle Wyl for hiding? Along comes Arthur to intervene in the kidnapping attempt (by Tywin) and take her to Castle Wyl himself perhaps with a pledge to protect Jon and Lyanna in some way. That could explain a lot concerning Ned's shame and reverence for Arthur and why he associates Arthur's death with Lyanna. It might even explain why there is confusion about Lyanna's identity as Wylla. She may have been travelling with Maester Walys as Wylla and maintained that identity. If true, then it's likely that Ashara knew where to find Lyanna and Jon. As for Robert, Ned describes him in his youth as every maiden's fantasy; tall, handsome and muscled all over. It wouldn't be hard for me to imagine Lyanna responding to that kind of masculinity; teenage hormones and all. It seems they were betrothed for some time. It's not out of the question they had contact before the tourney or that Robert would have such a strong pair bond with her after intimate relations. It's a question of timing a childbirth around Rhaegar's and Arthur's trip to Harrenhal or sometime thereafter. Lyanna's disappearance may have occurred after her brother and father ended up in KL. Since Ned is with her when she dies; I think this happens after the ToJ and Starfall. Once again Ned telling Robert in the crypts that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper (House Wyl) than Tywin Lannister when they discuss the pledge to protect a ward, in this case Robyn Arryn. I'm not sure that Rhaegar was ever involved in Lyanna's disappearance or knew where she was located. Imean forget all of that...I can't understand how these people can't see that in order for Robert to keep to one bed,Lyanna's bed would have to be his first and when that bed would be his doesn't have a start date.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 8, 2016 3:52:10 GMT
There's also the gayness factor to consider. I think Rhaegar might well have been gay, but I also think he was So he closed his eyes and thought of England Westeros.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2016 4:13:45 GMT
So he closed his eyes and thought of England Westeros. Right, I put Rhaegar in the same position as Renly, if you pardon the terrible pun - will marry and procreate for the sake of the realm, but his real interests lay elsewhere. I don't think the issue was that he couldn't or wouldn't bed his wife if push came to shove, but there's always the chance he found a workaround. Perhaps he and Elia both did.
|
|
|
Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 8, 2016 4:25:42 GMT
Yes, and yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the Knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilight saga and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved." I can't help but think of the tower of joy here. Rhaegar would leave his fortress of solitude (Summerhall) to meet up with his kingsguard buddies at the tower, aka the meeting place.
|
|
|
Post by min on Sept 8, 2016 7:12:00 GMT
Imean forget all of that...I can't understand how these people can't see that in order for Robert to keep to one bed,Lyanna's bed would have to be his first and when that bed would be his doesn't have a start date. Yes, for all I know, Brienne could be the one (re)born amidst salt and smoke at the QI or that Arthur Dayne found Lyanna and hid her rather than Rhaegar. But yes, I still think Jon is Robert's son. Whether she loved him or not and had misgivings about Robert's fidelity; there just has to be an opportunity for intimate relations before marriage. It's not like it could never happen. Lyanna's death is the other choke point since the accepted conclusion is that she died after giving birth to Jon at the end of the war. You can't convince anyone that she died of fever or illness with the bed of blood reference. The Snow-Storm bastardy is too good a fit to pass up; along with the Baratheon words "ours is the fury." I can believe that Rhaegar never had any kids; that Dany is the daughter of Aerys and Ashara still works for me. If Brienne is the example of a true knight; pledged to protect the weak and defenseless; I can see this being true for Arthur. That he might have rescued, hidden and protected Lyanna without telling Rhaegar also makes some sense to me. This might explain why Ned feels shame and reverence for Arthur. We're also told that there is no stain on Ned's name for anything that have happened between him and Ashara at the tourney. So why would Ned feel betrayed by Robert for a liaison with Lyanna if he even knew about it at all? How many babies are concieved before men go to war? Ned only feels that he dishonored Catelyn after their marriage. As she puts it, for taking solace in another woman. This has nothing to do with battle lust; more likely shared grief.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 8, 2016 14:22:37 GMT
there's always the chance he found a workaround. Perhaps he and Elia both did. Meaning that they agreed someone else would sleep with her repeatedly, over multiple years, and the three of them would then pretend any resulting children were Rhaegar's? It's possible -- what would the motive be? Just to get him out of bedroom duties? I think the odds are high Rhaegar didn't often worry about those anyway, because he knew exactly which night it was that Aegon was conceived. Whereas if he had asked a stand-in to do this on his behalf, the stand-in would have needed to get busy on a regular basis, to increase the odds of offspring, making it far harder to pinpoint conception.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 8, 2016 14:33:56 GMT
Also, of course, we have good reason to think Rhaegar believed Aegon was the PtwP.
But if a stand-in had sired Aegon, Aegon wouldn't be a Targ... and hence, I doubt Rhaegar would have seen Aegon as a plausible candidate for PtwP.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2016 15:16:23 GMT
But if a stand-in had sired Aegon, Aegon wouldn't be a Targ... and hence, I doubt Rhaegar would have seen Aegon as a plausible candidate for PtwP. That brings up the other nagging question: Does the PtwP have to be a true/full Targaryen? Was the original in prophecy? Melisandre apparently didn't think so. Aemon says the original prophecy translated to "dragon" - is that correct? I don't know the answers to any of these, fwiw.
|
|