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Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 10, 2016 3:03:09 GMT
I think it may be Aemon who is conflating the prophecies of various cultures. Both Melisandre and Aemon seem to believe that there is a coming major battle. Melisandre has Stannis pegged as her Azor Ahai. Before his death Aemon starts to vacillate towards Dany as TPTWP. Rhaegar believed that TPTWTP it was to be his son Aegon and perhaps that Aegon was going to be one of the heads of The Dragon. I think all three are a bit of a zealot. I think all of these prophecies are being conflated. My personal opinion is that Azor Ahai is a prophecy from Asshai. The Prince that was Promised is a Rhoynish prophecy. And the Valyrians had some sort of belief of The Dragon and The Dragon has "three heads". Then we have the Westeros tale of a coming Long Night, and whatever the Song of Ice and Fire is (perhaps something to do with the Reeds' vow to the Starks). I think all sides are trying to reconcile all of these different beliefs into one "savior". Nice summation. The Rhoynish angle is interesting to me since I'm on board with the crannogmen as ancient Rhoynish migrants. Not to mention the Ghost of High Heart is probably a marsh woman who would be a nice tie-in for it all: Friend of the Dragons through Jenny; giver of prophecies through the old gods; friend of the Brotherhood etc. Anyway, Did anyone else mention Beric as another drowned man/burning man/Azor figure? Cant recall if he has a smoke and salt aura.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 10, 2016 3:17:21 GMT
We read this very differently. You interpret his failing to contradict her to mean he agrees with her; I do not. Silence doesn't constitute assent. But then why does Aemon go to the trouble to contradict two of Melisandre's assumptions, but not the this one? He could just as easily contracted her entire belief in AA being the hero, yet he does not. His silence to Sam here is what I am reading as assent. He's way too smart of a man to tangle with zealots. But he does point out two contradictions to Sam and Jon. Aemon's initial question leaves no doubt they are talking about the same thing, the prophesy that foretells the war for the dawn, and that prophesy has a hero in it. To Aemon he's known as TPtwP, to Melisandre he's know as AAR. Also notice that Melisandre does not hesitate when asked who the prince that was promised is, to her it's clear who Aemon is speaking of. Nor does Aemon ask who is Azor Ahai. He knows exactly who she means. If you want to know what Aemon thinks about AAR, consider the book he asked Jon to read when he left Castle Black. Not a thing he brings up with Melisandre -- or Stannis -- either. Yes and with that book Aemon points out that the true Lightbringer was always warm as Nissa Nissa's blood, with supernatural powers to boil the blood of its victims. Right there he's contradicting the two things I'm talking about. The first being that the sword Melisandre claims to be Lightbringer is a fake; and the second being that Stannis, as its wielder, is a false saviour. So by omission he's saying that both prophesies foretell the same thing. The war for the dawn and its hero/saviour. If Aemon believed the PtwP has nothing to do with AAR, then why bother to assess the sword at all if the two are not related? He'd have dismissed her prophesy as being the wrong one and it wouldn't matter if the sword was fake or real. But notice Aemon didn't say this to Melisandre's face...I think he failed to do all this because Melisandre had just revealed herself as a zealot...He certainly didn't mean to imply he agreed with her about Lightbringer, Stannis, etc., through his silence. We do interpret his silence on this differently. I'll point out that Aemon has no problems questioning her about where the prince that was promised is, or to 'see' Stannis' sword, possibly risking both their wroth by doing so. And I'll agree with you that he won't waste his time on fools, so he just leave things there, where the two of them are concerned. Yet, his going to the trouble to make sure others know what he thinks of her chosen hero and his sword, but not that Melisandre is following the wrong prophesy, is in my book rather telling.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 10, 2016 3:31:04 GMT
Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet[\b] Ser DuncanThis interesting. At least to me this suggests that the text of the prophecy does not mention a comet but rather "a bleeding star". What else could a bleeding star symbolise? P.s. on my phone again so couldn't quote properly I don't know if you meant to tag me on this or just tried to quote the quote in my post. But I'll answer anyway . I think the text makes it clear that both sides of those believing in a saviour/hero read the bleeding star as comet. Like you quoted Rhaegar does, and then Aemon goes on to believe it's Dany who was reborn under the same bleeding star that Melisandre uses to make Stannis her hero. In the second quote in my post Melisandre calls the bleeding star a red comet, so she too sees the interpretation of bleeding star as comet. As for what else it could be, I've seen others interpret the death of Ser Patrik, whose sigil is a star, as the bleeding star that makes Jon the one reborn among the salt from Marsh's tears, and the smoke that Jon's wounds gave off in the cold.
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Post by min on Sept 10, 2016 3:51:47 GMT
Then there is the original prophecy that says 'when the stars bleed'- plural rather than a singular bleeding star. Why the difference?
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Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 10, 2016 5:02:11 GMT
Then there is the original prophecy that says 'when the stars bleed'- plural rather than a singular bleeding star. Why the difference? The comet crossing across the night sky would be the stars bleeding out? Another interpretation is the Faith of the Seven angle. The Poor Fellows have emerged brandishing their red, seven pointed stars following in the rituals of the originals who carved a star into their flesh. When the stars bleed...
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 10, 2016 12:28:07 GMT
We read this very differently. You interpret his failing to contradict her to mean he agrees with her; I do not. Silence doesn't constitute assent. But then why does Aemon go to the trouble to contradict two of Melisandre's assumptions, but not the this one? He could just as easily contracted her entire belief in AA being the hero, yet he does not. His silence to Sam here is what I am reading as assent. He's way too smart of a man to tangle with zealots. But he does point out two contradictions to Sam and Jon. Aemon's initial question leaves no doubt they are talking about the same thing, the prophesy that foretells the war for the dawn, and that prophesy has a hero in it. To Aemon he's known as TPtwP, to Melisandre he's know as AAR. Also notice that Melisandre does not hesitate when asked who the prince that was promised is, to her it's clear who Aemon is speaking of. Nor does Aemon ask who is Azor Ahai. He knows exactly who she means. If you want to know what Aemon thinks about AAR, consider the book he asked Jon to read when he left Castle Black. Not a thing he brings up with Melisandre -- or Stannis -- either. Yes and with that book Aemon points out that the true Lightbringer was always warm as Nissa Nissa's blood, with supernatural powers to boil the blood of its victims. Right there he's contradicting the two things I'm talking about. The first being that the sword Melisandre claims to be Lightbringer is a fake; and the second being that Stannis, as its wielder, is a false saviour. So by omission he's saying that both prophesies foretell the same thing. The war for the dawn and its hero/saviour. If Aemon believed the PtwP has nothing to do with AAR, then why bother to assess the sword at all if the two are not related? He'd have dismissed her prophesy as being the wrong one and it wouldn't matter if the sword was fake or real. But notice Aemon didn't say this to Melisandre's face...I think he failed to do all this because Melisandre had just revealed herself as a zealot...He certainly didn't mean to imply he agreed with her about Lightbringer, Stannis, etc., through his silence. We do interpret his silence on this differently. I'll point out that Aemon has no problems questioning her about where the prince that was promised is, or to 'see' Stannis' sword, possibly risking both their wroth by doing so. And I'll agree with you that he won't waste his time on fools, so he just leave things there, where the two of them are concerned. Yet, his going to the trouble to make sure others know what he thinks of her chosen hero and his sword, but not that Melisandre is following the wrong prophesy, is in my book rather telling. I think I agree. I'm not really sure that Aemon believes that Melisandre is a zealot, basically they both seem to have the same general worldview, and both believe that there is an upcoming battle for the Dawn. Both believe that their is a prophecized savior who is necessary to win the fight. Aemon just believes that Melisandre is wrong as to who that savior is. A lot of this seems to go back to the lesson of the Sealord's cat. People see what they expect to see. People believe what they want to believe. It can be argued that Aemon and Rhaegar are guilty of the same thing. Aemon in his last days latches on to Dany as the savior and starts to reinterpret his former beliefs to fit her into his interpretation of the various prophecies. It goes back to the days of Aegon V. Why did he choose to believe Jenny's albino buddy? Was it because she reaffirmed what they already believed, that if there was going to be a game changing messiah, it was going to come from his family? I wonder how much of the events of Summerhall, were the direct result of trying to steer events to fit what they believed was destined to occur?
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Post by min on Sept 10, 2016 14:25:35 GMT
It would be interesting to go back and look at Jon's conversations with Aemon. If Rhaegar was consulting Aemon on the prophecy; it stands to reason that Aemon would know the truth about Lyanna's kidnapping as well. It's curious that he doesn't consider Jon the PwiP but he does direct him to information in the Jade Compendium.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 10, 2016 14:58:50 GMT
Aemon in his last days latches on to Dany as the savior and starts to reinterpret his former beliefs to fit her into his interpretation of the various prophecies. It goes back to the days of Aegon V. Why did he choose to believe Jenny's albino buddy? Was it because she reaffirmed what they already believed, that if there was going to be a game changing messiah, it was going to come from his family? I wonder how much of the events of Summerhall, were the direct result of trying to steer events to fit what they believed was destined to occur? I agree with you, Aemon and Mel share the same worldview in this. Both are wanting to believe in their own brand of saviour. And you're right I don't think he believes she's a zealot per se, but he knows better than to tangle with either her or a prickly king, and just leaves his arguments for where he hopes they'll do more good. In Aemon's case, Dany is literally his last roll of the dice, seeing as he's got no other family left. I will say this, he's not alone in his beliefs, so that too could be influencing him, not just wanting the saviour to come from his house. I too wonder how much of Summerhall was this steering things to fit a prophecy. Seems like they'd do better to try and avoid the prophecy in order for it to come true, as what usually happens in most cases. But the interesting thing is again we see this doubling of the prophecies, Benerro sees Dany as AAR and it's this news, that the Red Priests are going about saying it's her, proved by her waking dragons (again something that was attempted at Summerhall, so further linking both prophecies) that makes Aemon believe they had it wrong before. Complicating matters is we don't know the origin of the Targ prophecy. It could be a prophecy from before the Valyrians found dragons, or it could come from the slaves of Valyria, later adapted to mean the Targs because they were the only family left with dragons. It could even be a Rhoynish prophecy, as you suggest, perhaps though it doesn't foretelling a hero of Rhoynish blood, but the coming of a traitor to their own families rising up and freeing those they oppressed. Then we have the dodgy translation that turned dragon into prince. We also have that passage in The Jade Compendium that describes the literal melting of beast stabbed with Lightbringer that sounds entirely too much like what happens to Ser Puddles, granted with a bit of embellishment, which makes me believe the prophecy, in whatever form it took was originally much older and all copies of it are compromised. Actually if the prophecy is old enough, each culture could've adopted it and made its own changes to suit their own situation. Look at how Jenny's friend further muddies the waters by declaring it is Jaehaerys' line that will spawn the hero.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 10, 2016 15:54:59 GMT
The comet crossing across the night sky would be the stars bleeding out? Another interpretation is the Faith of the Seven angle. The Poor Fellows have emerged brandishing their red, seven pointed stars following in the rituals of the originals who carved a star into their flesh. When the stars bleed.. I could see something as simple as this being a sign in that direction. Actually if the prophecy is old enough, each culture could've adopted it and made its own changes to suit their own situation. Look at how Jenny's friend further muddies the waters by declaring it is Jaehaerys' line that will spawn the hero. I've always wondered about this woods witch,she was very knowledgeable about that...She got the name down and everything.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 10, 2016 18:21:22 GMT
I've always wondered about this woods witch,she was very knowledgeable about that...She got the name down and everything. Oh wait, what if she was the one to name the hero/saviour the Prince that was Promised? What if before she called him that, it was Azor Ahai who was prophesied to be the hero/saviour, and we really are talking about the same damned prophecy? The other similarities are too coincidental, nearly the same actually, with the exception of the sword being linked with AAR and not (that we know of) to the PtwP. However, there are hints, the PtwP was meant to be a great warrior, and great warriors in Planetos always carry a great sword. Just saying.
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Post by min on Sept 10, 2016 20:08:20 GMT
I wonder how Brienne will fit in. I think Dany saw her in the HoU: A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. I read it as the white lion is taller than a man. White for purity and Lion for bravery.
Brienne' house is also associated with the morningstar. House Evenfall and the lord is called the Evenstar. The morning star and the evening star are basically the same planet seen at sunrise and sunset. Both are associated with dawn Tarth is an island located in Shipbreaker Bay; so another place of stormy weather. I don't think I would be surprised if Brienne ends up in Dany's Queensguard or ends up with the Dawn Sword. Brienne has a last hero kind of aura.
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Post by jnr on Sept 10, 2016 21:09:51 GMT
But then why does Aemon go to the trouble to contradict two of Melisandre's assumptions, but not the this one? Oh, you mean why doesn't he discuss Melisandre being wrong (about AAR and PtwP being the same person) later, with Sam? He doesn't discuss lots of things with Sam later. For instance, he never says to Sam that the PtwP prophecy is connected to his family (the Targs). He never says to Sam he used to correspond with Rhaegar about it. He never explains to Sam that the AAR prophecy is tied to a burning sword. He never mentions Nissa Nissa to Sam. He never discusses the original AA in any sense with Sam. Why? Well, he just doesn't. Aemon seems interested in confirming to himself that Melisandre is utterly wrong (because the sword gave off no heat), not explaining various things to Sam. And he does confirm that. Aemon's initial question leaves no doubt they are talking about the same thing, the prophesy that foretells the war for the dawn, and that prophesy has a hero in it. I see it differently. To me, Aemon's initial question only demonstrates that 1) He has heard of what Mel is describing before 2) He thinks of it as the "war for the dawn" -- a term never used before 3) He associates this in some sense with the PtwP So naturally he asks Mel "Where's the PtwP?" Because of course as a Targ, that question is personal for him. And she says: And that's enough for Aemon to see, just as it's enough for me to see, that Mel is conflating these two characters/prophecies. She sees no difference between them at all. Furthermore he can see she is wrong about that sword being Lightbringer, wrong about AAR being Stannis, and in general, not at all a trustworthy source of info. (It's lot for a blind man to see, but he does.) And Aemon chuckles to himself and lets it go. He could argue with her about all this, but he knows better. So what does Aemon think? Re the PtwP -- no mystery there. He certainly thinks Dany is the PtwP. He says so outright; he thinks her dragons prove it. And if he thought the PtwP was the same as AAR, then clearly, he would think Dany was AAR. But does he think Dany is AAR? I don't think so. Aemon does know, as a scholar, about AAR, which is how he knows Mel was wrong about Lightbringer and has chosen the wrong man as AAR. And he knows that her claims on the subject of AAR are, needless to say, a little shaky. But there's more. He flags a passage in the Jade Compendium about AA for Jon to read. And isn't that interesting? What is the connection in Aemon's mind between Jon and AA, that would encourage him to educate Jon on the subject of AA? If, as you say, he thinks Dany is both AAR and the PtwP? Shouldn't he be much more interested in educating Dany? But it never even crosses his mind. Never does he connect Dany and AAR in his words or deeds, to my knowledge. The war for the dawn and its hero/saviour. Only Mel talks about a hero/savior, because her focus is always on R'hllor and his champion (AAR), and because Azor Ahai is indeed described in heroic terms (slaying monsters for instance). But those who talk about the PtwP (Aemon, Rhaegar, the Ghost of High Heart for intstance) have not said what the PtwP is promised to do. We know the Targs are fixated on this entity, but that's all. Quite a blank slate as far as future actions. You can also look at it like this: AA, and AAR, are both heavily and directly linked to the sword. AA forged it and killed Nissa Nissa with it and slew monsters with it; AAR will, we are told, draw it one day, when the signs are right. But the PtwP is never said, by anyone at any time, to be linked to such a sword -- not by Rhaegar, or Aemon, or the Ghost, or anyone else, except for Mel. And Aemon knows her to be amusingly misinformed even about AAR, which is her primary focus, just as the PtwP is his primary focus.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 10, 2016 23:29:47 GMT
Then there is the original prophecy that says 'when the stars bleed'- plural rather than a singular bleeding star. Why the difference? The comet crossing across the night sky would be the stars bleeding out? When the stars bleed and the darkness gathers.....
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 11, 2016 0:00:48 GMT
Is that a still from Pompeii?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 11, 2016 1:21:08 GMT
LOL...yes. It was the only picture I could find that had volcanic fireballs.
I still think most of this prophecy/legend biznez is related to volcanoes, fwiw.
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