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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Apr 19, 2016 23:18:08 GMT
I think in the end about half of our conclusions agree or will agree - or the basis for the end conclusion is the same but we're taking some different routes or pegging different parallel characters. It's all good, it's not like anyone's going to win a Major Award for it, after all. Anyway, your essays are really full of symbolism, which is awesome and I'm blown over by some of the interpretations, but full disclosure: this isn't my strong suit as symbolism is so very subjective, and I'm always left wondering if my inability to see penis lances or lemon pee is a result of me being a moron or simply me arriving at a different interpretation. So that being said, I have to first eliminate some of that and get the message down to bare bones, hence why it's taking me a while. Errrr.... I didn't really get that from it.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 19, 2016 23:24:15 GMT
Nah, I don't do this expecting a reward, but I am very enthusiastic and excited, because examining the symbolism makes it seem like I'm reading a new book written by GRRM that I didn't know was there. It's the discovery that is the reward and I just want to share it with everyone here.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Apr 19, 2016 23:27:53 GMT
's cool, 's cool.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 27, 2016 15:41:06 GMT
I've been thinking about the timeline and how the events in this chapter are in conflict, namely four things seem inconsistent:
1) Jaime was a squire until Harrenhal tourney
2) Lyanna was kidnapped after the Harrenhal tourney
3) The detachment sent to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood was supposedly prior to the Harrenhal tourney
4) Ser Arthur was credited with defeating the Kingswood Brotherhood
According to this chapter the symbolism suggests:
1) Jaime was part of the detachment
2) Ser Arthur defected the Kingsguard during the detachment
Could this be what GRRM was referring to when he said the World Book contained errors? If Robert was the Smiling Knight and the members of the detachment were the actual identities of the Kingswood Brotherhood, then were the "maesters" purposely rewriting Robert's history to make sure that, not only himself, but all of the members of the detachment couldn't be connected to the kidnapping?
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Post by Melifeather on May 13, 2016 3:14:27 GMT
I reread this chapter and what stood out for me is that we have a daughter of a ruling noble plotting with her closest friends and KG lover to crown a queen. Arianne MARTELL’s secret plan is to take matters into her own hands (as she feels her father is sitting back doing nothing) and stage a coup that puts a LANNISTER princess on the throne. Now flip that around: The inverse to this in RR days would be a LANNISTER daughter launching a secret plan against her father's background wishes to remove a MARTELL princess from the throne. Martell Princess Arianne was trying to crown "Little Myrcella" which represents the marriage contract to Robert Baratheon, so it's Lyanna and Cersei since both were vying for one crown, whether Lyanna knew or wanted it. The Rebellion was planned long before Lyanna was kidnapped, and Cersei already knew that her father planned to kill both Aerys and Rhaegar and that Robert was the planned king. If Cersei was to become queen, she needed to remove Lyanna from the marriage contract. Cersei may have wanted Rhaegar, but she wanted to be queen more so if the next king was Robert Baratheon, so be it. As for memories...the brain is a funny thing. I don't think Jaime or Merrett are deliberately lying. I think that over time they've convinced themselves of their "official" stories. Complicating matters is the opening of the hinge which is the cause of all the inversions and it goes back to when Durran Godsgrief took Elenei to wife. Elenei was said to be the daughter of the god of sea and the goddess of the wind, but I believe this oral history is the account of what happened after the Long Night. The daughter of two gods was "magic", and it was taken and contained and warded. The description of the hinge as being iron and as squeaking is essentially saying it was old and warded. Not long before the dead direwolf mother and pups were found the hinge was opened. This caused distorted memories, not only for Jaime and Merret, but we witnessed it with Ned and his fever dream, which you are relying upon for the details at the tower of joy. I present the following scientific evidence that even in the real world, we cannot trust our memories. False memories are common
I realize that I am using real life stuff to defend a fantasy story, but for someone as widely read as GRRM I don't think it's a stretch that he could have read about false memories. I also am not asserting that I am confident that what I am interpreting is fact. There's no way for me to know if I'm right, because the factual details have never been published. Some of the chapters I have been able to corroborate with published events like what I've done with part 1 of The Reaver. At least I was able to find inverted events like you have done with the tower/tent inversions. Rest assure, you haven't offended me. I'm just glad to know that you read it even if you don't agree with it, but I also hope that you think on what I've said in this post and consider whether any of it has caused you to reconsider any of it.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 17:28:50 GMT
Another thing I noticed is that we have different ways of working out inversions - you focus on the inversion of the symbolism whereas I'm focusing on events. Not saying that one is right or better than the other, but we do get very different results that way. For instance, I reread this chapter and what stood out for me is that we have a daughter of a ruling noble plotting with her closest friends and KG lover to crown a queen. Arianne MARTELL’s secret plan is to take matters into her own hands (as she feels her father is sitting back doing nothing) and stage a coup that puts a LANNISTER princess on the throne. Now flip that around: The inverse to this in RR days would be a LANNISTER daughter launching a secret plan against her father's background wishes to remove a MARTELL princess from the throne. I'd be curious to see what you could come up with if you take Lyanna out of the equation as the main victim in this chapter. Prior to Harrenhal, when Cersei was still at King's Landing and had some degree of influence there, she wouldn't have given two shits about Lyanna Stark - Lyanna was engaged to Robert, who Cersei also wouldn't have given two shits about, and the person who was primarily in Cersei's way of both the most beautiful man she'd ever seen and being that beautiful man's wife/eventual Queen was Elia Martell. I don't know where that road will go but I think that's where it started. This is exactly where I'm at. I see things more concrete too. The symbolism is there, but it's the actions what counts, I think. I think the symbolism is there to highlight the clues, but are not the clues themselves. If that makes any sense at all.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 17:44:51 GMT
Martell Princess Arianne was trying to crown "Little Myrcella" which represents the marriage contract to Robert Baratheon, so it's Lyanna and Cersei since both were vying for one crown, whether Lyanna knew or wanted it. The Rebellion was planned long before Lyanna was kidnapped, and Cersei already knew that her father planned to kill both Aerys and Rhaegar and that Robert was the planned king. If Cersei was to become queen, she needed to remove Lyanna from the marriage contract. To the underlined-- I disagree with this. Myrcella is a Lannister princess, not a symbol. Arianne's plot is to put Myrcella on the throne so she can have a pawn. Ultimately, I think Arianne would've done away with Myrcella, since she is a Lannister after all, and had Myrcella and Tyrstane's child become king or queen. There's the duplication in reverse of the Martell's being rulers of the 7K. Instead of a Martell princess, we'd get a Martell prince. While Myrcella doesn't have any Targ ancestry (since she's not a Baratheon) the inverse would still work because, any way you cut it, the Lannisters are the new ruling power. To the bolded -- See my problem with this is that it goes against text. We are told, quite clearly by Ned, at the end of the rebellion, when it came time to choosing which of the TWO of them would be king, Ned turned it down. He states Robert had the better claim, due to having a Targ grandmother, and Ned having no Targ ancestry at all. But there was a choice. Either one of them would sit the Iron Throne. So to conclude that Robert was the planned king all along, makes both Robert and Ned liars. Additionally Robert states openly he never wanted the crown, all he wanted was the girl (Lyanna), instead he got Cersei, the bane of his existence. ETA Sorry I don't know where my original underlining went, but I've fixed it now. Luckily Mel knew what I was referring to regardless.
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Post by Melifeather on May 14, 2016 19:20:29 GMT
Myrcella is a Lannister princess, not a symbol. GRRM keeps calling Myrcella "Little Myrcella", and symbolically she is both Lyanna and a teenaged Cersei. Lyanna was promised to Robert, but Cersei was the one that ended up marrying Robert. That's how they are both "Little Myrcella". Do you see what I'm getting at? Arianne thought that by crowning Myrcella she would gain banners to support her own claim to take Dorne from her father and rule as his heir. That is why Arianne is not the complete opposite of Cersei, as it's Cersei who thought she deserved to be her father's heir, but who also wanted to be queen. I think we need to view this situation more like a criminal investigation to see who had motive. 1) We've got a dead girl. (Lyanna) 2) Cersei is queen because Lyanna is dead 3) So who stood to gain from Lyanna's death?
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 4, 2017 16:35:52 GMT
Clarifying my thoughts...
The Queenmaker chapter's parallel co-joins Lyanna with Ashara as the inversion to Myrcella and her handmaiden Rosamund. Myrcella represents the marriage contract between the throne and Dorne (south), while the parallel inversion to that was Lyanna's marriage contract with Robert Baratheon's future throne and the North. Myrcella and Rosamund trade places at Sunspear. Rosamund pretends to be Myrcella with fake red spots painted on her face to keep the maester and the rest of the household away, while a Lannister man dressed in Ser Arys's armor stands guard at the door. Ser Arys then sneaks the real Myrcella out of the castle and leads her to a well. My proposed parallel inversion would be to have Robert Baratheon sneak Lyanna out of the castle, or alternatively Lyanna is lured out of the castle by telling her that Robert wanted to talk to her. Now whether or not she had real red spots or not or whether maester Walys stayed away or was the one to lure her away, my interpretation suspects Jaime Lannister dressed in a replicate of Rhaegar's armor and led Lyanna to a well, which is symbolic for drowning or dying. Long story short, the co-joined horses are Lyanna and Ashara, because somehow these two women trade places, because further on in the chapter Darkstar attacks Myrcella and cuts off her ear and nearly half of her face. She survives the attack, but Dorne now has the problem of explaining her injuries to the throne. The parallel inversion would be that Lyanna is attacked, but does not survive, and the solution was to have Ashara pretend to be Lyanna until the throne can explain what happened to the North.
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 6, 2017 15:52:07 GMT
I have been rethinking the Queenmaker chapter this morning. It's like trying to work out a puzzle. I had thought that "little Myrcella" was symbolic of Lyanna's marriage contract to Robert, and maybe it still is, but it's also Elia. Myrcella was the Lannister throne promised to a Dornish prince, whereas Elia was the Dornish princess married to the throne's heir. Myrcella and her handmaiden, Rosamund traded places in order to get her out of the castle, so maybe Elia and Ashara traded places too? So Elia escaped the castle once, but was brought back just like Myrcella was, and that's how she got confined to Maegor's holdfast. But, here's the confusing part. Ashara should be mirrored by Lyanna, since north and south traded places. I also am keeping in mind that Arya saw her father beheaded. Now two fathers were killed and two women could have seen their execution. Elia could have seen Aerys killed, and Lyanna could have seen Rickard killed. But if Ashara=Lyanna and escaped again like Arya escaped, then somehow Lyanna and Ashara trade places at Kings Landing sometime around when Rickard was executed. The reason why the clues seem to overlap is that the wheel reversal occurred sometime during Robert's Rebellion causing the layering and flipping. All of a sudden Ashara becomes Lyanna, and Lyanna receives Ashara's fate.
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 6, 2017 15:55:19 GMT
I want to add that since Myrcella was cut by Darkstar, that instead of Elia being cut her guard Gerold Hightower was cut, so maybe the kidnapping plot of Myrcella is mirroring when Elia was attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood?
The layering over of when the flipping occurred is causing me double vision, so to speak. I have to talk myself through this, so bear with me. The details of Lyanna's kidnapping should be the reversal of Elia's secret mission, but her outcome would also be the reverse of Ashara. Before leaving the castle, Elia traded places with Ashara, probably for security reasons, when she was attacked by the KWB. The Kingswood Brotherhood was defeated, but not without first injuring Ser Gerold Hightower. Elia eventually returns to the castle unharmed.
When reality is flipped, Lyanna may have also employed a handmaiden to pretend to be her in order to slip out of Winterfell unnoticed. I'm wondering if because Myrcella's maester stayed away for fear of red spots, that there was a similar plan for Elia and Elia's maester was told she was sick. In Lyanna's case the reverse would be true and Maester Walys would be with her. Furthermore, since both Elia and Myrcella went willingly, Lyanna would have been forced.
OK, spitballing the location...where would be the northern version of the Kingswood? It's very tempting to insert the Inn at the Crossroads, but only because it would be a nice reversal of Catelyn and Tyrion, but Tyrion wouldn't be Lyanna's inversion since Elia was. Recall the basic structure of the inversion would be to have the Lannisters mirror the Martells.
So why the layering of three? It's been said that GRRM reveals in threes. We have condensed report of Elia's attack with no details as to how she left the castle or what she was up to other than she was carrying a large amount of coin. We have a suspect report of Lyanna's abduction, and a full account of Myrcella's fake kidnapping.
Still puzzling...will post more...
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Post by essosiwatch on Aug 31, 2017 4:42:18 GMT
My take on this chapter: Arianne=Rhaegar Garin=Howland Reed Planky Town=crannogs Shandystone=Oldstones Spotted Sylva=some Redwyne, I don't know who exactly Drey Dalt=Lem Lemoncloak Ser Gerold=Arthur Dayne Areo Hotah=Ser Gerold Hightower Arys Oakheart=Ashara Dayne Myrcella (Lannister)=Lyanna Stark Lannisters=Starks
Howland Reed helped some of them probably to find a secret way from westerlands around Golden Tooth, then they met the rest at Oldstones. Later Ashara with Lyanna arrived. They headed to Greywater Watch where Ser Gerold Hightower helped Ashara Dayne to cease to exist. And of course the White Bull knew where to find Rhaegar. He got him there in the first place, same as Areo took the princess and escorted her to her tower and later brought her to her father.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 1, 2017 17:18:41 GMT
My take on this chapter: Arianne=Rhaegar Garin=Howland Reed Planky Town=crannogs Shandystone=Oldstones Spotted Sylva=some Redwyne, I don't know who exactly Drey Dalt=Lem Lemoncloak Ser Gerold=Arthur Dayne Areo Hotah=Ser Gerold Hightower Arys Oakheart=Ashara Dayne Myrcella (Lannister)=Lyanna Stark Lannisters=Starks Howland Reed helped some of them probably to find a secret way from westerlands around Golden Tooth, then they met the rest at Oldstones. Later Ashara with Lyanna arrived. They headed to Greywater Watch where Ser Gerold Hightower helped Ashara Dayne to cease to exist. And of course the White Bull knew where to find Rhaegar. He got him there in the first place, same as Areo took the princess and escorted her to her tower and later brought her to her father. This is my absolute favorite chapter to discuss! I too think Gerold Hightower had something to do with the sword wound Lyanna took.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 12, 2018 22:41:32 GMT
When I get time I need to make some major revisions on the analysis for this chapter to fit the following timeline:
Prior to the tourney at Harrenhal, I posit that Lyanna somehow got mixed up with a group known as the Kingswood Brotherhood. They are portrayed as bandits, but I think they were actually an honorable group, and a parallel to Beric Dondarrion's group that Ned sent out to deal with Ser Gregor Clegane's raiders.
The KWB were trying to gain intelligence on an earlier group of raiders sent out by King Aerys that was also kidnapping highborn maidens. King Aerys wanted these young girls to provide "dragon seeds" to be used in his attempts to hatch dragon eggs.
When Ser Gerold Hightower accompanied Princess Elia through the Kingswood, they were attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood. Not to rob them of their coin, but because they had dragon eggs.
(Edited - rearranged order) King Aerys sends out a detachment to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood giving Ser Arthur Dayne command since Hightower was injured. They find and engage the KWB, but Merrett Frey gets captured. Lord Crakehall ends up ransoming him back, but not before Lyanna/Wenda brands Merrett's backside. It is not known what happened to "Wenda", but the "bandits" are effectively disbanded. Merrett ends up with a cracked skull somehow, and Jaime ends up knighted by Arthur on the field.
I think Jon Snow is Ashara and Ned's son, conceived at Harrenhal. Jaime is invested into the Kingsguard as a reward for his valor during the disbandment of the KWB.
At one of the feasts held during the ten days of the tourney, Rickard finished his negotiations with Jon Arryn to marry Lyanna to Robert. The sniffling during Rhaegar's performance probably had more to do with her father's decision than to the sadness of the song. The conversation between Ned and Lyanna was then prompted by her tears.
Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna, even though he may have suspected her participation, not just as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but as her secret identity as Wenda the White Fawn. After Lyanna was crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty, she got spooked and ran. She went back to hide in the Riverlands - an area that she knew well from when she was Wenda.
Gregor Clegane was one of the groups looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree after the tourney. He and his men end up at an inn and raped the innkeeper's daughter, Layna. I posit that the "daughter" ended up being Lyanna, and Gregor brought her back to Tywin at Kings Landing, and they placed her in the Black Cells.
Also after the tourney, Rhaegar had Varys swap out Aegon for the Pisswater Prince and took Aegon (Elia's child) to Dorne for safekeeping.
Meanwhile, Ashara learns she's pregnant, but nothing can be done about a marriage to Ned, because the Starks and Daynes were on opposite sides of the Rebellion. She's sent to court in disgrace to become Elia's handmaiden.
When Brandon hears Lyanna was captured, he rides to Kings Landing. Maybe Aerys realized who he had then? If Aerys suspected that Lyanna was working with the Kingswood Brotherhood, then that would further explain his violent reaction to Brandon.
When Elia was taken into custody, and Rhaella left, Ashara found a way to escape the Red Keep much like Sansa did, and was the true identity of the Fisherman's Daughter that Ned encountered when he left to call his banners. She ends up giving birth at White Harbor, and Ned convinces her to let him raise Jon while she goes on to Braavos and into exile as Septa Lemore. This is how Jon and his wet-nurse Wylla ended up at Winterfell before Catelyn and Robb. Even though Jon is described as slender, and maybe small for his age, there was no real way to hide his age other than for Maester Luwin to try and calm Catelyn's fears by telling her that bastards grow up faster.
Rhaella gives birth to Dany very soon after arriving to Dragonstone. The stay couldn't have been very long, because I just can't see Robert allowing her to remain on that island while he's on the throne. After her death, Willem Darry took Viserys and Dany to Braavos, and must have taken refuge with Illyrio.
After the sack of Kings Landing, Ned found Lyanna dying down in the Black Cells from a festering wound she suffered during the encounter with Gregor Clegane and his men. She never gave birth to any child. After she died, Ned had her body packed in salt in a barrel and shipped home while he went to Storms End to lift the siege. Later, he and Howland return Dawn to Starfall.
I will also add the following revision - an illumination that occurred while deciphering Cat of the Canals:
There is a second person that may better fit the description of a scrawny old tom with a chewed off ear, and a better parallel for Darkstar: Ser Gerold Hightower. As Commander of the Kingsguard it was up to Gerold to see to the training of their newest members. Gerold fits the description upthread about ear symbolism - the part about words being poison. Jaime sneered when talking about Gerold:
Gerold was described as fierce despite his old age. Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne. Perhaps it was during this attack when Merrett was kidnapped by the Kingswood Brotherhood, and then retrieved during the second detachment lead by Arthur Dayne? Hightower's hand was injured during this attack when Ulmer shot an arrow through it. The missing ear of the cat may be a reference to when Gerold Dayne (Darkstar) attacked Myrcella, cutting off HER ear and nearly half her face. I had found parallels between Gerold Hightower and Gerold Dayne in my analysis of The Queenmaker chapter, and while I later included Arthur Dayne as a parallel to Gerold Dayne, I suspect that Darkstar's given name, "Gerold Dayne", is meant to bring our attention to BOTH detachments. The first as being lead by Gerold Hightower, and then the second lead by Arthur Dayne. Furthermore, the physical description of Lem Lemoncloak sounds more like Gerold Hightower than Arthur. Lem is described as big and brawny despite his age, and fierce. Sounds like I have a lot of revisions to make!
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