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Post by jnr on Oct 3, 2016 4:43:57 GMT
On the KotLT though, while it is ambiguous, it seems again to me, a waste of time if it's not Howland. Or at the very least Ned. Otherwise what the hell is he telling his kids the bleeding story for? This is pretty much how I see it also, because a man does not repeatedly tell his children stories in which he is a big pussy. (They will whine and object at having to listen to the Big Pussy Dad story yet again.) Also, if you put yourself in his shoes at Harrenhal, he surely knows jousting is a dangerous sport. He just met this girl Lyanna, who is fourteen -- about seventh grade -- for the first time in his life two days ago. She seems a decent sort. He knows there is no armor suitable for her, certainly not made for her properly. She would have to ride wearing armor that is bits and pieces, and ill-fitting. He burns for vengeance against the squires, but... is he such a sociopath that he wants the seventh-grade girl to risk injury or death on his behalf? When he is, as the story says, a man grown? I doubt it. I think he knows that if he wants vengeance he's going to have to get it himself. And then when he gets it, well, that's a story he is perfectly comfortable repeating to his kids over and over again. As to how he gets it, given his inexperience in jousting, that may have something to do with the Isle of Faces, and the old gods, but we shall see. And why would the kids themselves think that Ned's sprogs would've heard it a thousand times before as well? This, I think, is a cool little touch. Meera is the more action-oriented of the two kids by far; she's also the one who suggests maybe the knight was Howland, as we see. Taking action personally is what she herself would have done in that situation. But Jojen is a kind of passive, doleful, fatalistic kid, who probably would not have taken action personally. He seems to have developed a theory that it wasn't his Dad, that it was a Stark, and that's why he is the one who asks Bran, again, if Bran is sure he never heard this story. I think Jojen is trying to prove his theory by asking Bran for support, but he just doesn't get any support.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Oct 3, 2016 16:13:19 GMT
Meera is the more action-oriented of the two kids by far; she's also the one who suggests maybe the knight was Howland, as we see. Taking action personally is what she herself would have done in that situation. But Jojen is a kind of passive, doleful, fatalistic kid, who probably would not have taken action personally. He seems to have developed a theory that it wasn't his Dad, that it was a Stark, and that's why he is the one who asks Bran, again, if Bran is sure he never heard this story. If you look at this way, Meera says -- The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one. It looks like they are both working off their own theories. Meera has pegged her dad, while Jojen has pegged Bran's dad. Both, I think work. Had Jojen not insisted in questioning Bran twice, then I would say it had to be Howland, no doubts. But that litte 'might have been' from Meera is what makes it possible for it to be Ned. And I say Ned, not another one of the Starks for the same exact reason we're talking about here with Howland. Why tell your kids a tale in which you were a wuss? Or if you do tell them the story in which you didn't stand up for yourself, then tell it because your friend and overlord stood up for you. You make it a tale about how your overlord won your fealty, rather than having it by default. Conversely, if TKotLT was Ned, he could tell it as a moral story to his kids about what is due to your bannerman.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 3, 2016 18:54:14 GMT
Meera is the more action-oriented of the two kids by far; she's also the one who suggests maybe the knight was Howland, as we see. Taking action personally is what she herself would have done in that situation. But Jojen is a kind of passive, doleful, fatalistic kid, who probably would not have taken action personally. He seems to have developed a theory that it wasn't his Dad, that it was a Stark, and that's why he is the one who asks Bran, again, if Bran is sure he never heard this story. If you look at this way, Meera says -- The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one. It looks like they are both working off their own theories. Meera has pegged her dad, while Jojen has pegged Bran's dad. Both, I think work. Had Jojen not insisted in questioning Bran twice, then I would say it had to be Howland, no doubts. But that litte 'might have been' from Meera is what makes it possible for it to be Ned. And I say Ned, not another one of the Starks for the same exact reason we're talking about here with Howland. Why tell your kids a tale in which you were a wuss? Or if you do tell them the story in which you didn't stand up for yourself, then tell it because your friend and overlord stood up for you. You make it a tale about how your overlord won your fealty, rather than having it by default. Conversely, if TKotLT was Ned, he could tell it as a moral story to his kids about what is due to your bannerman. I have a hard time believing it was Ned, mainly because they described him as short. Ned was 18 at the time, so probably as tall as he was ever going to be, and has never been described as short in the books.
I still think it could have been Lyanna, but I do agree that Lyanna could not have beaten three tourney knights, at least not without some type of magical help. So I've wondered if it was her, could Howland have cast a glamor or something to that effect to have kept her opponents from being able to accurately see her. (even though I'm not sure glamors really work that way). As an aside, if Howland could have done something like that, then I wonder if that is the same aid he gave to Ned during the fight at the toj?
Since I think that Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents, then my theory is that Howland would have been very curious as to whether Ned would have told his kids the story of how Howland and Lyanna first met.
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Post by ac on Oct 3, 2016 19:49:53 GMT
If you look at this way, Meera says -- The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one. It looks like they are both working off their own theories. Meera has pegged her dad, while Jojen has pegged Bran's dad. Both, I think work. Had Jojen not insisted in questioning Bran twice, then I would say it had to be Howland, no doubts. But that litte 'might have been' from Meera is what makes it possible for it to be Ned. And I say Ned, not another one of the Starks for the same exact reason we're talking about here with Howland. Why tell your kids a tale in which you were a wuss? Or if you do tell them the story in which you didn't stand up for yourself, then tell it because your friend and overlord stood up for you. You make it a tale about how your overlord won your fealty, rather than having it by default. Conversely, if TKotLT was Ned, he could tell it as a moral story to his kids about what is due to your bannerman. The problem I have is that it doesn't serve either of these purposes because Howland never tells the kids who the KotLT was. If Howland knows who it was, why is he keeping their identity a secret now when the danger passed with Aerys? Clearly there is more to this story than we know about (or maybe just that I can remember!). I wonder if there are any clues to help us guess what more there is, or if we are completely in the dark. I have a hard time believing it was Ned, mainly because they described him as short. Ned was 18 at the time, so probably as tall as he was ever going to be, and has never been described as short in the books. Didn't Aerys suspect Jaime at the time? Or maybe that was just another character's speculation.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Oct 3, 2016 20:26:51 GMT
I have a hard time believing it was Ned, mainly because they described him as short. Ned was 18 at the time, so probably as tall as he was ever going to be, and has never been described as short in the books. That's why I favour it being Howland. But if it isn't Howland then the only reason Jojen might think Bran's heard the story a hundred times is that it was Ned. I still think it could have been Lyanna, but I do agree that Lyanna could not have beaten three tourney knights, at least not without some type of magical help. So I've wondered if it was her, could Howland have cast a glamor or something to that effect to have kept her opponents from being able to accurately see her. (even though I'm not sure glamors really work that way). As an aside, if Howland could have done something like that, then I wonder if that is the same aid he gave to Ned during the fight at the toj? Again, the link with whatever happened at the ToJ is another reason to think it was Howland. If say he prayed to the trees and got help from them in the tourney, what kind of help I'm not sure of (Bran?), that same link could've helped him to save Ned at the ToJ. OTOH, if TKotLT was Ned saving Howland's honour, then Howland's saving Ned's life brings them full circle. Kinda. But yes, I can see what you mean here, and it's probably the best alternative I've heard, the story being of their first meeting and followed with whatever other 'kissing story' Howland tells his kids. Since I think that Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents, then my theory is that Howland would have been very curious as to whether Ned would have told his kids the story of how Howland and Lyanna first met. But it's Jojen, not Howland that is curious here. So I don't think you can bank on that being a reason. Unless, of course Jojen knows a lot more about his father's love life than we know. Which is always possible. Jojen is not an open book.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 3, 2016 20:28:47 GMT
If you look at this way, Meera says -- The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one. It looks like they are both working off their own theories. Meera has pegged her dad, while Jojen has pegged Bran's dad. Both, I think work. Had Jojen not insisted in questioning Bran twice, then I would say it had to be Howland, no doubts. But that litte 'might have been' from Meera is what makes it possible for it to be Ned. And I say Ned, not another one of the Starks for the same exact reason we're talking about here with Howland. Why tell your kids a tale in which you were a wuss? Or if you do tell them the story in which you didn't stand up for yourself, then tell it because your friend and overlord stood up for you. You make it a tale about how your overlord won your fealty, rather than having it by default. Conversely, if TKotLT was Ned, he could tell it as a moral story to his kids about what is due to your bannerman. The problem I have is that it doesn't serve either of these purposes because Howland never tells the kids who the KotLT was. If Howland knows who it was, why is he keeping their identity a secret now when the danger passed with Aerys? Clearly there is more to this story than we know about (or maybe just that I can remember!). I wonder if there are any clues to help us guess what more there is, or if we are completely in the dark. I have a hard time believing it was Ned, mainly because they described him as short. Ned was 18 at the time, so probably as tall as he was ever going to be, and has never been described as short in the books. Didn't Aerys suspect Jaime at the time? Or maybe that was just another character's speculation. Whoever the grand master was that supposedly wrote the info in the Worldbook stated that Aerys suspected it was Jaime. Of course Jaime was only 14 or 15 at the time, so it was more likely that he had not yet grown to full height.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 3, 2016 20:38:38 GMT
I have a hard time believing it was Ned, mainly because they described him as short. Ned was 18 at the time, so probably as tall as he was ever going to be, and has never been described as short in the books. That's why I favour it being Howland. But if it isn't Howland then the only reason Jojen might think Bran's heard the story a hundred times is that it was Ned. I still think it could have been Lyanna, but I do agree that Lyanna could not have beaten three tourney knights, at least not without some type of magical help. So I've wondered if it was her, could Howland have cast a glamor or something to that effect to have kept her opponents from being able to accurately see her. (even though I'm not sure glamors really work that way). As an aside, if Howland could have done something like that, then I wonder if that is the same aid he gave to Ned during the fight at the toj? Again, the link with whatever happened at the ToJ is another reason to think it was Howland. If say he prayed to the trees and got help from them in the tourney, what kind of help I'm not sure of (Bran?), that same link could've helped him to save Ned at the ToJ. OTOH, if TKotLT was Ned saving Howland's honour, then Howland's saving Ned's life brings them full circle. Kinda. But yes, I can see what you mean here, and it's probably the best alternative I've heard, the story being of their first meeting and followed with whatever other 'kissing story' Howland tells his kids. Since I think that Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents, then my theory is that Howland would have been very curious as to whether Ned would have told his kids the story of how Howland and Lyanna first met. But it's Jojen, not Howland that is curious here. So I don't think you can bank on that being a reason. Unless, of course Jojen knows a lot more about his father's love life than we know. Which is always possible. Jojen is not an open book. Yea, I meant to say Jojen, and not Howland. Perhaps Howland told Meera and Jojen how he first met Lyanna, but never clued them in on who actually played the part of the Laughing knight and the two have been speculating ever since. And if Howland did have a relationship with Lyanna, and Meera is her daughter, then perhaps they are curious as to how much Ned told his family about it. That's my crackpot anyway. Of course if that's true, I can't recall Meera ever asking Bran anything about Jon, so I guess if my theory is correct, Howland probably never told Meera about her secret twin brother.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Oct 3, 2016 20:41:52 GMT
The problem I have is that it doesn't serve either of these purposes because Howland never tells the kids who the KotLT was. If Howland knows who it was, why is he keeping their identity a secret now when the danger passed with Aerys? Clearly there is more to this story than we know about (or maybe just that I can remember!). I wonder if there are any clues to help us guess what more there is, or if we are completely in the dark. Good questions. I would think the reason Howland doesn't make it clear who the TKotLF is, is because it's obviously about him. If you see what I mean? A dad is telling his children tales of his younger days. Important tales that point the history of the realm, much like Old Nan. He doesn't need to tell them 'I was the KotLT' because they should be able to deduce it was him. And yes there has to be more to the story, because it takes place at a pivotal point in history. Just like Old Nan's tale of the last hero gets interrupted for a reason. Too much backstory for the reader to know at the mo'. Didn't Aerys suspect Jaime at the time? Or maybe that was just another character's speculation. IIRC, I think Aerys did suspect Jaime. Mind you, that would be a great twist to Jaime's character. He did admire Ser Arthur, and have aspirations of being a good and honourable knight. The problem is that Jaime's thoughts never betray his going straight back to King's Land upon Aerys' command.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Oct 3, 2016 20:46:20 GMT
Yea, I meant to say Jojen, and not Howland. Perhaps Howland told Meera and Jojen how he first met Lyanna, but never clued them in on who actually played the part of the Laughing knight and the two have been speculating ever since. And if Howland did have a relationship with Lyanna, and Meera is her daughter, then perhaps they are curious as to how much Ned told his family about it. That's my crackpot anyway. Of course if that's true, I can't recall Meera ever asking Bran anything about Jon, so I guess if my theory is correct, Howland probably never told Meera about her secret twin brother. I've gotta tell ya, that is my favourite X+Y=J theory. Howland being the dad of both of them is brilliant. He keeps the girl to remind him of his Lyanna, and Ned keeps the son because he can't bear not to have a piece of his sister with him.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 3, 2016 20:51:52 GMT
Yea, I meant to say Jojen, and not Howland. Perhaps Howland told Meera and Jojen how he first met Lyanna, but never clued them in on who actually played the part of the Laughing knight and the two have been speculating ever since. And if Howland did have a relationship with Lyanna, and Meera is her daughter, then perhaps they are curious as to how much Ned told his family about it. That's my crackpot anyway. Of course if that's true, I can't recall Meera ever asking Bran anything about Jon, so I guess if my theory is correct, Howland probably never told Meera about her secret twin brother. I've gotta tell ya, that is my favourite X+Y=J theory. Howland being the dad of both of them is brilliant. He keeps the girl to remind him of his Lyanna, and Ned keeps the son because he can't bear not to have a piece of his sister with him. Heh, my theory is morphing a bit. My thought is that Howland and Jon are separating them for their own safety, under the same theory that Robb decided to separate his wife and his mother. I think Robb said that a man should not keep all of his treasures in one purse.
My thought being that Jon and Meera were meant for the furnace/chimney that was the Targaryen "tower of joy" along with some other special bastards (Gendry, perhaps Dany if she was indeed from Dorne and not born on Dragonstone, and whoever Aegon really is).
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Post by jnr on Oct 4, 2016 0:48:34 GMT
Elio and Linda are useful idiots for George Bingo. If they have known the truth for years, they've been lying to the fanbase for years, in the strongest terms, and that is not something they can say and expect it to go over very well. The truth IMO is that they were fooled just as much, and for the same reasons, as all the other diehard RLJers. Parris has said at least once that GRRM refused to tell her who Jon's parents were. If he wouldn't tell his wife, I doubt very much he told Alfie Allen, D&D, Ran and Linda, or anybody else. It looks like they are both working off their own theories. Meera has pegged her dad, while Jojen has pegged Bran's dad. That's exactly what I'm saying; they just both pick a theory that reflects their personalities. Meera just doesn't need to go digging around in Bran's head for evidence. Because her answer -- Howland -- most definitely told this story to the kids a hundred times. Jojen tries, and fails, to establish the same for Ned. I have a hard time believing it was Ned, mainly because they described him as short. Ned was 18 at the time, so probably as tall as he was ever going to be, and has never been described as short in the books. This is my opinion too. Snowfyre points out in response that Ned's height is really never specified, which is true too. He also has ideas that Howland was okay having somebody else take all the risk, and get vengeance, because it was his (Howland's) liege lord, and this is also why he's okay telling his kids a story in which he doesn't get his own vengeance. I've pointed out that at that time, Ned wasn't his liege lord -- Rickard was -- but my recollection is that Snowfyre stayed pat even so. If Howland knows who it was, why is he keeping their identity a secret now when the danger passed with Aerys? He might be rather like GRRM. He just likes telling stories that are full of ambiguity and leaving it up to the audience to draw their own conclusions in their own ways. Most American parents do a very similar thing with their young children around Christmastime. But they know who's really putting the goodies in the stockings.
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Post by snowfyre on Oct 4, 2016 16:40:13 GMT
This is my opinion too. Snowfyre points out in response that Ned's height is really never specified, which is true too. He also has ideas that Howland was okay having somebody else take all the risk, and get vengeance, because it was his (Howland's) liege lord, and this is also why he's okay telling his kids a story in which he doesn't get his own vengeance. I've pointed out that at that time, Ned wasn't his liege lord -- Rickard was -- but my recollection is that Snowfyre stayed pat even so. Yeah, it was Ned. It's a good puzzle, and a fun discussion to have amongst friends. But in the end, Ned's clearly the most logical candidate. Snowfyre points out in response that Ned's height is really never specified, which is true The closest we ever get to a description of Ned's height is Catelyn's observation that he was not just "a younger version of his brother Brandon," but " shorter and plainer of face, and so somber." Not much to go on, there. And really, we never get much information on height in the Stark family... which is remarkable, considering how GRRM goes out of his way to tell us how tall certain characters are. The Baratheon brothers, the Clegane brothers, Hodor, Jaime, Joffrey, Brienne, the Greatjon, Khal Drogo, Victarion, etc. Clearly height is not the standout characteristic of Stark blood. And Ned appears to have been shorter than some in his family. No way to rule out the possibility that Ned was " short of stature." You know, for a knight. He also has ideas that Howland was okay having somebody else take all the risk, and get vengeance, because it was his (Howland's) liege lord, and this is also why he's okay telling his kids a story in which he doesn't get his own vengeance. Again... yes, more or less. I think if we take Meera's word literally, that " the lad was no knight, no more than any of his people," and that crannogmen " sit a boat more often than a horse," with "hands... made for oars, not lances," then it's quite clear why Howland " feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people" in his effort to claim vengeance in the lists. It's because that's exactly what would have happened. He would have made a fool of himself. And he would have shamed his people. Just as he feared. This is a guy, after all, who took " a little skin boat" - not a horse - to travel all the way from his home in the Neck down to the Trident, and then walked " many a day" - carrying said boat on his head - to reach the Gods Eye. Oars, not lances, indeed. Forget lances... this guy couldn't even ride a horse at the time, as far as we know. So it wasn't just a "risk" that he would have failed. It was a virtual certainty, unless some alternative solution presented itself. As far as alternative solutions go... the presence of a discreet friend, a keeper of the old gods but trained as a squire in the Vale, tied to your house by sworn allegiances, and sharing the same tent at the tourney... well, it all looks pretty good. I can just picture the moment Meera left out of the story, where Ned went looking for Howland that night after the feast... only to stumble on him at the lakeshore, where he unintentionally overheard the crannogman's " prayer to the old gods of north and Neck..." and realized just how " torn" his friend's heart was. Makes a decent tie-in, as well, to the oath Meera and Jojen repeat to Bran at the harvest feast: Ned himself wasn't anyone's liege lord at the time, no. But he was the blood of Winterfell. And he may have been the only Stark trained in the joust, period. (Brandon, apparently, got his ass handed to him in the only appearance we know of.)
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Post by Melifeather on Oct 4, 2016 17:51:59 GMT
I still think Ned skinchanged into Howland much like Bran does to Hodor, only Howland was willing. He'd benefit from Ned's skill and keep his pride intact by being an in an active partnership.
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Post by jnr on Oct 4, 2016 18:10:53 GMT
Forget lances... this guy couldn't even ride a horse at the time, as far as we know. Well, either he already could then, or he had learned from scratch two years later... when he rode with Ned to the ToJ. Ned himself wasn't anyone's liege lord at the time, no. But he was the blood of Winterfell. And he may have been the only Stark trained in the joust, period. (Brandon, apparently, got his ass handed to him in the only appearance we know of.) Not sure why the blood of Winterfell would apply. Howland certainly wanted vengeance, but I think he could have not have been proud of asking someone else to risk injury to get this vengeance on his behalf, in ill-fitting armor made of bits and pieces. Re Brandon -- either he had training... or he decided to joust at Harrenhal despite having had no training. I go with door #1. As for Ned, he has no canonical history in the joust at all. But I agree that it's still possible he was the Knight. So it wasn't just a "risk" that he would have failed. It was a virtual certainty Yes, it seems so, unless you take seriously the various references along these lines: Perhaps all these references combined mean nothing. Or perhaps they tell a coherent tale about Howland. It's certainly beyond any doubt that at least one of Howland's kids does have magical gifts of some sort, and we are told repeatedly that in the time of the hammer, the CotF grew close to the crannogmen. The line that Howland wasn't satisfied with the magic of his own people, but "wanted more," and therefore went to the Isle of Faces, in combination with the shield sigil, also seems extremely suggestive to me. We also know far more now than we did when ASOS was published on the subject of skinchanging and its theoretical potential for affecting the outcome of an event such as a joust. Just a little nudge, to spook the other man's horse, just a nudge, would have at least as much power as the mare in heat Loras rode, to cheat the Mountain of a virtually certain win in another joust. But as to whether such a situation actually applied, we shall have to wait and see... though unfortunately, I've got no clear notion that we'll get any answer in TWOW. We may never see; unlike GRRM's promise to reveal Jon's parents, there's been no promise we'll ever be told the truth.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Oct 4, 2016 18:16:48 GMT
I've pointed out that at that time, Ned wasn't his liege lord -- Rickard was -- but my recollection is that Snowfyre stayed pat even so. And so he should because at the time of Howland telling the tale, Ned is there liege lord. It makes sense to tell his kids a story about how Ned won Howland's friendship and loyalty before he became the Lord of Winterfell. I still favour Howland as the KotLT, but I can make a pretty good case for it being Ned as well. For me that is the only plausible alternative to Howland. And precisely because Ned is now their liege lord. A story like that, told to his heirs, who would be the next in line to be leal subjects of the Starks, would certainly be appropriate. Not much to go on, there. And really, we never get much information on height in the Stark family... which is remarkable, considering how GRRM goes out of his way to tell us how tall certain characters are. The Baratheon brothers, the Clegane brothers, Hodor, Jaime, Joffrey, Brienne, the Greatjon, Khal Drogo, Victarion, etc. I'm not quite as convinced as you about his height. With the description of Jon, who looks most like a Stark, compared to Robb, there is nothing in it to suggest him being short. Smaller of frame and lithe, doesn't mean short. He could be more of a lanky person, as opposed to a brawny person, of the same average height. Which is not below average height, as the KotLT description suggests.
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