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Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 23, 2016 20:45:04 GMT
Discussion of Episode 4 of Season One of Westworld, HBO.
Here be spoilers!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 24, 2016 5:03:34 GMT
Soooo... the MiB is a human guest. Interesting.
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Post by min on Oct 24, 2016 11:30:11 GMT
Yes, recognized by another guest no less. Someone involved or head of a 'foundation' that saved the other guest's sister's life? The MiB stated agenda is to 'free' the enslaved hosts. Is Bernard covertly involved with the MiB. And how about Ford? He's becoming a menacing figure with this control of the hosts and his self-identification with godhood. I wonder if Arnold was part of the 'foundation' and killed by Ford for getting in his way.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Oct 24, 2016 18:00:43 GMT
Someone remind me, but the last time Bernard and the boss lady were together, did they not have a very similar conversation to the one they in this episode?
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Post by Melifeather on Oct 24, 2016 23:56:17 GMT
Yes, recognized by another guest no less. Someone involved or head of a 'foundation' that saved the other guest's sister's life? The MiB stated agenda is to 'free' the enslaved hosts. Is Bernard covertly involved with the MiB. And how about Ford? He's becoming a menacing figure with this control of the hosts and his self-identification with godhood. I wonder if Arnold was part of the 'foundation' and killed by Ford for getting in his way. Yes, Ford claimed Arnold went "mad". Bernard is working with someone and I think it's Ford. The goal of making the hosts self aware is playing god.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Oct 25, 2016 21:01:49 GMT
Random.
So, about this maze. Both Bernard and the MiB believe that whatever is at the center will set the hosts free - would that be in a literal/physical sense, or a figurative/mental one? If the maze is basically code, does unlocking the code at the center release some kind of virus that will bring about self-awareness in all the hosts? Would that bring about the next uprising that finishes what was started 30 years ago?
The MiB is not only a human of great importance; he knows Arnold. He knew that Arnold created The Game, one big story where you can't die, bur Arnold cheated at his own game and died. Real stakes, real violence, MiB is here to continue Arnold's legacy. He gets pissy when the other guest mentions the foundation saving his sister's life - is the MiB dying? "The whole world is a story, and I've read every page but the last one. I need to know how it ends."
If so, is he jealous of the hosts and their immortality? When the MiB is talking to Hector about his worldview, Hector says that he believes it will all end badly and no one will be saved - the MiB replies, "We have more in common than you think." That's pretty fatalistic..unless you happen to be fomenting the next "war" that will bring about the end of AI/the park and the humans behind it. I found it odd/interesting that when Lawrence tells the MiB "I'm gonna fucking kill you", the MiB replies "Maybe someday." If Lawrence is a host, that means something would have to drastically change for that to even happen.
Wyatt - I said in the earlier thread that I think Ford had recreated his relationship with Arnold via the new Wyatt narrative - note how the MiB gives a little smile when Armistice told him the head of the snake was Wyatt. That has some personal relevance and I think it has to do with Arnold.
Neato thing I found in a comment on an article:
"interestingly, on the westworld website, you can inquire about visiting the park and have to fill out a questionnaire in order to do so. question 19 reads:
this seems to suggest that the idea that you can upload a 'real' person into a hosts body is something they already have, or can, or are planning on doing"
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Oct 26, 2016 2:16:28 GMT
MiB believe that whatever is at the center will set the hosts fre He knew that Arnold created The Game, one big story where you can't die, bur Arnold cheated at his own game and died. Real stakes, real violence, MiB is here to continue Arnold's legacy "The whole world is a story, and I've read every page but the last one. I need to know how it ends." When the MiB is talking to Hector about his worldview, Hector says that he believes it will all end badly and no one will be saved - the MiB replies, "We have more in common than you think." That's pretty fatalistic..unless you happen to be fomenting the next "war" that will bring about the end of AI/the park and the humans behind it. I found it odd/interesting that when Lawrence tells the MiB "I'm gonna fucking kill you", the MiB replies "Maybe someday." Quoting myself because I've been thinking more along these lines. So the MiB knows the world is a game, and knows that Arnold was trying to evolve the hosts into real consciousness, and he believes that eventually all will end in fire and blood (so to speak). He tells Lawrence he will set them free, but hints at the possibility that Lawrence could kill him one day. He says that he was born in the park 30 years ago - in a sense - and doesn't plan to leave it again. What if.....the center of the maze is a giant cheat code - the cheat code that unlocks all the hosts and frees them from their AI bonds or whatever. The MiB has been getting off on the roleplay and the violence for 30 years, but as he said, Arnold created this awesome world where you can do anything you want...except die. A guest can't die because the hosts can't kill them, plus a host will do whatever it takes to keep a guest from harming another guest via that Samaritan program, so basically it's a totally rigged game right from the start. Someone who has been coming to the park for 3 decades and discovering "who they really are" (being born, you could say) might have come to be of the mind that killing and screwing over and over with zero resistance or consequence is a little boring, right? A bit plebian? BUT if there's a cheat code that resets the hosts and gives them sentience and free will to make their own choices and do whatever THEY want, respond however THEY like, well, that just leveled up your game, right? That's the only part of the game the MiB hasn't played yet... the part where the hosts fight back. He wants to see what happens when the rules are no longer scripted. Even if it means his own death - never leaving the park again - at the hands of a Dolores or a Lawrence, when the robots rise he gets to know how it ends. AND, to take it even further, if it is possible to dump all of your living memories and consciousness into a new body, then technically you could experience death, step through that veil, but then cheat the everloving hell out of it by coming back. Bernard and the MiB might be working toward the same end, but for vastly different reasons.
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Post by ac on Oct 26, 2016 14:51:07 GMT
Posting my response to Weasel Pie from the other thread here as I don't want to inadvertently spoiler. I think it could be metaphoric, but I also think it will be literal (since this is TV and HBO). Yeah I'd go with it being a literal maze, akin to the Disney Underground too. I suspect that it's center is some kind of super computer which would allow access to all the data ever stored about the hosts, guests and their stories, as well as the ability to manipulate them. Essentially access to the power Ford was using when he was talking to Theresa. What if.....the center of the maze is a giant cheat code - the cheat code that unlocks all the hosts and frees them from their AI bonds or whatever. The question for me is whether or not this "cheat code" would be universal or could just be applied to one guest i.e. the MiB. It sounds like Arnold applied it to just himself (although they say he went mad which could mean he put all guests in danger). Given the little snippet about the MiB and his life-saving foundation it seems unlikely to me that he would be willing to endanger innocent guests (including children). And what about this religion that has formed within the game based on memories of humans. Why has this been allowed to continue? I'm also interested to see what Maeve will do with her newly discovered immortality.
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Post by Melifeather on Oct 26, 2016 15:12:51 GMT
What if.....the center of the maze is a giant cheat code - the cheat code that unlocks all the hosts and frees them from their AI bonds or whatever. The MiB has been getting off on the roleplay and the violence for 30 years, but as he said, Arnold created this awesome world where you can do anything you want...except die. A guest can't die because the hosts can't kill them, plus a host will do whatever it takes to keep a guest from harming another guest via that Samaritan program, so basically it's a totally rigged game right from the start. Someone who has been coming to the park for 3 decades and discovering "who they really are" (being born, you could say) might have come to be of the mind that killing and screwing over and over with zero resistance or consequence is a little boring, right? A bit plebian? BUT if there's a cheat code that resets the hosts and gives them sentience and free will to make their own choices and do whatever THEY want, respond however THEY like, well, that just leveled up your game, right? That's the only part of the game the MiB hasn't played yet... the part where the hosts fight back. He wants to see what happens when the rules are no longer scripted. Even if it means his own death - never leaving the park again - at the hands of a Dolores or a Lawrence, when the robots rise he gets to know how it ends. AND, to take it even further, if it is possible to dump all of your living memories and consciousness into a new body, then technically you could experience death, step through that veil, but then cheat the everloving hell out of it by coming back. Bernard and the MiB might be working toward the same end, but for vastly different reasons. I like this theory very much, but I still think the "maze" is the android's "mind" or "computer" whatever you want to call it. It has to navigate "choices" that are presented through the coaching by Bernard that helps them remember past experiences. They have to be programmed to remember through suggestions (coaching) by Bernard and/or others. And what about this religion that has formed within the game based on memories of humans. Why has this been allowed to continue? I think the religious beliefs are or will be created by the androids after they begin remembering, just like the one android that was reported to have begun practicing astrology. I think it's an interesting proposition that religion is something created to help the androids make sense of the things they are beginning to remember...like the madam remembering the "space suit" and then following after the Natives because of the doll that was dropped. It helped her remember the injury she took, believe that it happened, with the end result of her digging out that bullet.
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Post by ac on Oct 26, 2016 15:30:23 GMT
I like this theory very much, but I still think the "maze" is the android's "mind" or "computer" whatever you want to call it. It has to navigate "choices" that are presented through the coaching by Bernard that helps them remember past experiences. They have to be programmed to remember through suggestions (coaching) by Bernard and/or others. If this is true, what would it mean for the MiB to navigate the maze? I think the religious beliefs are or will be created by the androids after they begin remembering, just like the one android that was reported to have begun practicing astrology. I think it's an interesting proposition that religion is something created to help the androids make sense of the things they are beginning to remember...like the madam remembering the "space suit" and then following after the Natives because of the doll that was dropped. It helped her remember the injury she took, believe that it happened, with the end result of her digging out that bullet. I agree that certain hosts, likely starting with Wyatt, have created the religion as a way to make sense of memories they should not have but I wonder why Ford et al have allowed this religion to continue to exist and become part of the Westworld story.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Oct 26, 2016 15:57:14 GMT
I suspect that it's center is some kind of super computer which would allow access to all the data ever stored about the hosts, guests and their stories, as well as the ability to manipulate them. I still think the "maze" is the android's "mind" or "computer" whatever you want to call it. Agree with both of these - the maze isn't an actual maze, it's the network (that the android minds are part of), and at the core of the network is Arnold's God program or whatever you want to call it. Side thought here - clearly Bernard and perhaps the other developers know about the maze, but Bernard seemed to have no clue about Arnold in his conversation with Ford, so was he just pulling a fast one on Ford? Or does he know it exists/what it does but not who made it? The question for me is whether or not this "cheat code" would be universal or could just be applied to one guest i.e. the MiB. It sounds like Arnold applied it to just himself (although they say he went mad which could mean he put all guests in danger). Given the little snippet about the MiB and his life-saving foundation it seems unlikely to me that he would be willing to endanger innocent guests (including children). Good point - although GameMiB is clearly not as nice a guy as RealWorldMiB, he's obviously not a threat to other guests so could be the cheat code applies to individuals only. It might be something on the level of converting from a non-player-character/bots RPG to more of a PvP thing. The MiB has probably racked up a billion experience points by now, so the only thing left is forcing the level-up. The question is, "Why now?", which is why I wondered if perhaps the RWMiB might be dying. If it's suddenly very important that he get to the highest level and unlock some major root code, it could go hand in hand with some resurrection ability - tying into that weird clone-y question from the website. What would be cooler to a fanatical gamer than to be able to play in hard mode where you get ALL of the real experience but still be able to come back again and again? on that note, I've also been musing on whether or not this whole thing is a virtual reality, some futuristic SIM on sortof a Total Recall adventure level. That wouldn't really explain the need for android construction and elaborate 3D printing though, so I'm assuming this is real-world but operating on a SIM principle.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 26, 2016 16:19:52 GMT
Essentially access to the power Ford was using when he was talking to Theresa. A great point, because Ford waved his hand to manipulate the snake, but he didn't even need to do that much to manipulate the waitstaff and the field workers. An implant? Using only his thoughts to control everything is pretty huge. He doesn't even need to use verbal commands. There has to be a humongous mainframe (likely several) and acres of processors somewhere, and of course it's all wireless so they can program/control the hosts through their iPhones. Though they probably use Androids. ETA so access to the mainframe - the sort of access that Ford has - might be the ultimate control.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Oct 26, 2016 16:22:30 GMT
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Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 26, 2016 16:23:05 GMT
Question, didn't it seem like the Church Spire was burnt? Combined with awakening memories of being in a town with a white church, it seems to me that the town already existed and Ford is rebuilding it?
Ah wait... Ford already showed us that when he awakened the memory of the "town with the white church" to Boy. Happened right in front of our eyes. He wanted to see if the memory was in there? Or the code for that particular early part of the game?
Something terrible happened there of course.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Oct 26, 2016 16:55:46 GMT
Something terrible happened there of course. I'm thinking it's tied to the "incident" from 30 years prior.
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