|
Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 16, 2016 18:02:50 GMT
There are echoes of Jaime in this chapter too. Cersei convinced Jaime to go along with her plan regarding getting him appointed to the Kingsguard and free him of his proposed marriage to Lyssa Tully after a night of passionate sex. Yes, there certainly is. Again I can't wait till you get further along because I think Jaime may actually be inverting Ned in some cases, but I'd like to see how that would be supported (if he is) or not.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Apr 20, 2016 2:43:56 GMT
After completing the Queenmaker chapter, I am wondering if Robert Baratheon is the Soiled Knight? I'll have to do some digging to see if the same parallels apply, but the recent deciphering of clues about Robert dressed in Rhaegar's armor makes it seem pretty likely that he fits the symbolism of the Soiled Knight. Anybody have any thoughts to go with this?
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Apr 23, 2016 14:58:19 GMT
Just a note, Lewyin is Elia's uncle, not brother. The best one I've read so far Melifeather ! These are spot-on parallels. I am still stuck on the culpable party being Arthur. After deciphering The Queenmaker I thought I had gotten this entire chapter completely wrong. Our Soiled Knight is not Lewyn Martell...it's Robert Baratheon. I've revised the above essay. Take a look and see if you agree. I look forward to your response.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 23, 2016 16:22:13 GMT
After deciphering The Queenmaker I thought I had gotten this entire chapter completely wrong. Our Soiled Knight is not Lewyn Martell...it's Robert Baratheon. I've revised the above essay. Take a look and see if you agree. I look forward to your response. Good thing I didn't get the chance to finish it then ETA the Queenmaker I mean, this one I read and enjoyed. I'll give it another looky loo though. Bobby B as the Soiled Knight, hmm.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 23, 2016 16:55:19 GMT
He looks down, hunches his shoulders and thinks, We men are so weak. Our bodies betray even the noblest of us. Even the noblest of us. Ned was the noble one, and Robert felt guilty the rest of his life whenever he looked at Ned or thought about Lyanna. I don't think it's guilt that Robert has towards Ned and Lyanna. He feels remorse for how things turned out, and a lot of anger, but not guilt. His speeches and actions in Thrones are quite clear. we identified “little Myrcella” as a marriage contract. It is symbolic of the one between Robert and Lyanna. Can we conclude then that Cersei plotted to poison the relationship and marriage contract between Robert and Lyanna? I don't know about this one. Sure Cersei is a meddling bitch, but I don't see any motivation or advantage to her doing this. Crazy as she is, Cersei usually has a goal in mind, albeit a short sighted one, and here there is none for her. At this point in the past Cersei still believes she will be queen, and the plot (at least the way I understand it) was to oust Aerys and put Rhaegar on the throne, not Robert. That happened after the war, and was decided between Ned and himself, not with anyone else, that we know of at least. Arys found the game maddening. Did Robert find the Game of Thrones equally maddening? Certainly Robert would find cyvasse maddening, look at how badly he messed up being king. This aspect of Arys and the lasciviousness are really the only things that tie them together. Robert didn't care a fig about honour, he cursed Ned for his. I don't think I'm getting on board with this one Mel. Tywin and Cersei may have convinced Robert that Lyanna's death was necessary for him to become king. See, this is something I don't think could ever happen. Robert would've killed Tywin on the spot even for suggesting this. If Robert was presented with this option he would choose not to be king and let Lyanna live. It's all, he says, he ever wanted. Lets try to flip the above. Tywin tells Robert that if Lyanna is killed it will incite the rebellion they all want, but it cannot happen while Lyanna is under his protection. Arys declares that no one will harm Myrcella while he lives. Robert may have said something to the effect that he’s the one with access to Lyanna. A noble vow, said Doran Martell, but you are only one man, ser. Doran had hoped that by imprisoning his three nieces that it would calm the waters, but if only drove the conspirators underground. The inversion of this would be Tywin explaining to Robert that he had hoped by taking Lyanna, Ashara, and Elia hostage that it would be enough to cause the uprising, but it only created a stalemate. They need to kill Lyanna to unite the north into action. Tywin would have reminded Robert that he had Targaryen blood too and would benefit from the rebellion. Again, there was no idea of Robert being king at this point, so it doesn't make sense. Also, I highly doubt Robert would 'plot' anything, let alone with Tywin, a man whom he had nearly nothing to do with. It's against Robert's nature to plot things. He's a battle commander, he makes tactical decisions (and good ones) on the spot. There is way too much passion and not enough cold bloodedness in Robert for him to be the Soiled Knight. You were right the first time with it being Lewyn. Made a lot more sense that way. Sorry Mel.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Apr 23, 2016 17:20:36 GMT
I don't know about this one. Sure Cersei is a meddling bitch, but I don't see any motivation or advantage to her doing this. Crazy as she is, Cersei usually has a goal in mind, albeit a short sighted one, and here there is none for her. At this point in the past Cersei still believes she will be queen, and the plot (at least the way I understand it) was to oust Aerys and put Rhaegar on the throne, not Robert. That happened after the war, and was decided between Ned and himself, not with anyone else, that we know of at least. There was obviously a lot of planning prior to the Rebellion. There is evidence that the Lannisters, Tullys, Starks, and Arryns were plotting to remove Aerys from the throne, and they even may have met with Rhaegar, except Tywin may not have shared his vision of Cersei on the throne. He was already angry with Aerys for refusing his marriage proposal of Cersei to Rhaegar. And I believe that was the seed that was planted and grew into this plot, but he needed to find a man with ambition and a blood tie to the Targaryens, and that is Robert. However, Robert was already engaged to Lyanna, so they needed Lyanna removed so that Cersei could marry Robert and thus become Queem. It's exactly what happened, so I don't think this new interpretation is very far from the truth. Again, there was no idea of Robert being king at this point, so it doesn't make sense. Also, I highly doubt Robert would 'plot' anything, let alone with Tywin, a man whom he had nearly nothing to do with. It's against Robert's nature to plot things. He's a battle commander, he makes tactical decisions (and good ones) on the spot. There is way too much passion and not enough cold bloodedness in Robert for him to be the Soiled Knight. You were right the first time with it being Lewyn. Made a lot more sense that way. Sorry Mel. Robert already had a reputation with the ladies. It was Lyanna's main objection to the marriage alliance. Cersei and Tywin exploited Robert's desire for power. He wanted to be King and the Rebellion needed Tywin's military prowess. Robert's willingness to "forgive" the deaths of Rhaegar's children and future desire to send knives after Dany demonstrate his ruthlessness. The reader's ability to judge Robert is clouded by how honorable Ned is. We are fooled by his association with Ned and dismiss the blatant evidence that Robert is cold and cunning. He's a classic charismatic narcissist. Charismatic people are fabulous actors. They attract people with their charm and personality, but underneath is a narcissist whose grandiosity soars to such heights that they are manipulative and easily angered, especially when they don't receive the attention they consider their birthright. Robert is the Storm God of Storm's End, and I think we're going to see additional symbolism tying him to that diety.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 23, 2016 17:48:29 GMT
There was obviously a lot of planning prior to the Rebellion. There is evidence that the Lannisters, Tullys, Starks, and Arryns were plotting to remove Aerys from the throne, and they even may have met with Rhaegar, except Tywin may not have shared his vision of Cersei on the throne. I agree with this. There is evidence there was a plot between all of these houses. And I also agree that Tywin didn't share Cersei's vision of being queen. However, that doesn't mean she gave up on that vision. Even as an adult she clings to the prophesy Maggy the Frog told her. So I can see her still plotting to get the throne, despite what her father thinks. He was already angry with Aerys for refusing his marriage proposal of Cersei to Rhaegar. And I believe that was the seed that was planted and grew into this plot, Very true. The marriage refusal, plus Aerys interest in Joanna Lannister and Jaime being made a King's Guard are exactly why Tywin turned his cloak. but he needed to find a man with ambition and a blood tie to the Targaryens, This is what I don't get. And it's not about this theory either. If you're taking the throne by conquest, blood doesn't matter a damn. I never understood that in the straight forward story we get from Ned, that Robert had the better claim due to blood. Who give a shit what blood you have? Right of conquest is, right of conquest. You've won the throne through battle, not lineage. It's exactly what happened, so I don't think this new interpretation is very far from the truth. It is what happens, I'm just not convinced it wasn't more by taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves, as to having plotted all of it to this extent. Tywin is a good strategist, but he's not an oracle. Cersei and Tywin exploited Robert's desire for power. He wanted to be King and the Rebellion needed Tywin's military prowess. But Robert says to Ned, 'it should've been you' to be king, and that he 'never wanted this', all he wanted was Lyanna. Don't get me wrong, I think Robert loves being king, or at least the freedom to do what he likes most, hunt and hold tourneys. But we continually see Robert chafing at being the king too. He wants all the benefits and none of the responsibility, that's the whole reason he recruits Ned after Jon Aryn dies, so that Ned can run the kingdom and Robert can play. Robert's willingness to "forgive" the deaths of Rhaegar's children and future desire to send knives after Dany demonstrate his ruthlessness. The reader's ability to judge Robert is clouded by how honorable Ned is. We are fooled by his association with Ned and dismiss the blatant evidence that Robert is cold and cunning. That's not how I see Robert at all. Yes he's charismatic, a good battle tested leader, but not cold and cunning. His willingness to forgive the Lannisters for their atrocities is due to his Targ hate. He believes the Targs are responsible for all that befell him and Lyanna. That's his passion that is still burning in him 15 years later. Additionally, Robert is lazy and the Lannisters fill the gap for him nicely. Jon Aryn and Tywin, along with the Small Council, ran the kingdom. Robert did bollocks. He ran the crown into debt and into the ground. That's not what a cool headed strategist does.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Apr 24, 2016 1:54:31 GMT
doesn't mean she gave up on that vision. But Cersei was queen. Tywin and Cersei were successful, because Cersei became queen and not Lyanna. This is what I don't get. And it's not about this theory either. If you're taking the throne by conquest, blood doesn't matter a damn. I never understood that in the straight forward story we get from Ned, that Robert had the better claim due to blood. Who give a shit what blood you have? Right of conquest is, right of conquest. You've won the throne through battle, not lineage Yes, he did take it by conquest, but Ned was part of the conquest too, so why was Robert made King? He became King because the Rebellion forces expected him to be king due to his blood ties to the Targaryens. That's not what a cool headed strategist does. Robert was never a cool headed strategist. He's a charismatic narcissist. Seven signs that Robert was a charismatic narcissist: 1) He wanted the title - toxic leaders tend to love acquiring titles that show their authority — ego is a major driver of this. 2) They are masters of disguise, and can be deceitfully charming. Robert was everyone's friend. 3) They revise history to their benefit - World Book anyone? 4) They will reward others if it protects their own status. Robert "forgave" Jaime Lannister and Barristan Selmy, who were once Aerys Kingsguard. 5) They relate to others as their source of pleasure, like objects, possessions. I believe Robert viewed Lyanna as a possession. 6) They can be volatile when their mind game is challenged in any way. Robert got very angry with Ned over Dany, and Ned even feared for his and his daughter's lives. 7) Constructive criticism is not welcome. They expect praise and admiration. Robert never took Ned's criticism without an angry outburst.
|
|
|
Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 24, 2016 19:08:35 GMT
Seven signs that Robert was a charismatic narcissist: 1) He wanted the title - toxic leaders tend to love acquiring titles that show their authority — ego is a major driver of this. 2) They are masters of disguise, and can be deceitfully charming. Robert was everyone's friend. 3) They revise history to their benefit - World Book anyone? 4) They will reward others if it protects their own status. Robert "forgave" Jaime Lannister and Barristan Selmy, who were once Aerys Kingsguard. 5) They relate to others as their source of pleasure, like objects, possessions. I believe Robert viewed Lyanna as a possession. 6) They can be volatile when their mind game is challenged in any way. Robert got very angry with Ned over Dany, and Ned even feared for his and his daughter's lives. 7) Constructive criticism is not welcome. They expect praise and admiration. Robert never took Ned's criticism without an angry outburst. That's very interesting. He does have some narcissistic qualities. I would peg Cersei as the more narcissistic of the two, though less charismatic than King Bob. Number 2 on the list I do not see. He was actually charming and open. Unlike other narcissists, I don't think that was a disguise for Robert. You do have me reevaluating King Bob. Looking at his story and life through this view, I can see the self centered guy he most likely was.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Apr 24, 2016 20:30:15 GMT
Seven signs that Robert was a charismatic narcissist: 1) He wanted the title - toxic leaders tend to love acquiring titles that show their authority — ego is a major driver of this. 2) They are masters of disguise, and can be deceitfully charming. Robert was everyone's friend. 3) They revise history to their benefit - World Book anyone? 4) They will reward others if it protects their own status. Robert "forgave" Jaime Lannister and Barristan Selmy, who were once Aerys Kingsguard. 5) They relate to others as their source of pleasure, like objects, possessions. I believe Robert viewed Lyanna as a possession. 6) They can be volatile when their mind game is challenged in any way. Robert got very angry with Ned over Dany, and Ned even feared for his and his daughter's lives. 7) Constructive criticism is not welcome. They expect praise and admiration. Robert never took Ned's criticism without an angry outburst. That's very interesting. He does have some narcissistic qualities. I would peg Cersei as the more narcissistic of the two, though less charismatic than King Bob. Number 2 on the list I do not see. He was actually charming and open. Unlike other narcissists, I don't think that was a disguise for Robert. You do have me reevaluating King Bob. Looking at his story and life through this view, I can see the self centered guy he most likely was. While the details aren't clear yet, it appears there may be a conspiracy between the Citadel and Cersei, Tywin, and Robert. Why was it imperative to basically destroy the Starks? They didn't want Lyanna as queen, and they killed Rickard and Brandon. Why? I'm expecting to unveil answers in the future chapters, but at the moment it looks like Maester Walys was involved.
|
|
|
Post by Paulus on May 7, 2016 5:07:05 GMT
Could Robert be the soiled knight while also being ignorant of some of the finer points of the conspiracy?
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on May 7, 2016 13:53:30 GMT
Could Robert be the soiled knight while also being ignorant of some of the finer points of the conspiracy? Absolutely! I'm speculating of course. All the Soiled Knight chapter does is show how Cersei seduced Robert into participating in the plan. However, I now look at Bran's vision differently about the looming giant in stone armor full of black blood. It's either Robert or the Citadel....now that I've talked through that sentence I'm leaning towards the Citadel! lol
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on May 7, 2016 14:07:25 GMT
We witness Arys inner struggle, his desires battling his honor. With Robert there was no such inner struggle. He is an active conspirator with Cersei and Tywin, because he believes that by working together they can ensure he takes the throne. The tantalizing and provacative descriptions of Arianne’s beauty not only symbolize Cersei’s beauty in her youth, but also the delicious, desirous fruit of placing himself on the Iron Throne. Their passion is a shared vision and Robert is their willing partner. Robert is blinded by his own desire for power and just as Arys hadn’t noticed the crack in the ceiling until after he had rolled off Arianne, Robert doesn’t see how Cersei and Tywin are using him. There is a division in this partnership of three, and Cersei and Tywin’s true plans are hidden from Robert and this blindness to the truth will result in his death as well as the deaths of Ned and Lyanna. The crack in the ceiling that Arys Oakheart fails to notice is perhaps evidence that Robert was not aware of the finer points of the conspiracy. Arianne says to Arys, “You bleed. I scratched too hard.” The inverted symbolism of this statement is highly ironic seeing that for all his common cause with Cersei and Robert, he’s the one that will end up dead. I think the "you bleed, I scratched too hard" is foreshadowing of Cersei's plot to kill Robert.
|
|
|
Post by Paulus on May 8, 2016 15:18:17 GMT
I almost think of Cersei as a less clever version of Claire Underwood in house of cards. Cersei is clearly capable of balking her father's plans when it suits her to do so. She just isn't as capable a character allowing emotion to blind her choices which leads to irrational behaviour. Do we know eneough of Arianne to think she is similar in nature to Cersei?
Or maybe I am misunderstanding the thesis. Maybe the character's who are "replaying" a role from a previous generation don't have to be fully similar in nature?
If the martell's are reliving the lannister's then it makes sense to look at Arianne as a younger version of Cersei. The thing that makes me wonder about Robert being the original soiled knight is that Robert ended up very important, and Oakheart doesn't seem very important at all.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 15:34:14 GMT
I almost think of Cersei as a less clever version of Claire Underwood in house of cards. Cersei is clearly capable of balking her father's plans when it suits her to do so. She just isn't as capable a character allowing emotion to blind her choices which leads to irrational behaviour. Do we know eneough of Arianne to think she is similar in nature to Cersei? Or maybe I am misunderstanding the thesis. Maybe the character's who are "replaying" a role from a previous generation don't have to be fully similar in nature? If the martell's are reliving the lannister's then it makes sense to look at Arianne as a younger version of Cersei. The thing that makes me wonder about Robert being the original soiled knight is that Robert ended up very important, and Oakheart doesn't seem very important at all. Arianne and Cersei don't have to be alike or completely opposite either. It's just that the wheel of time has provided opportunities for them that they choose to play out according to their desires and abilities. Similar situations, differing results. Like setting up a chess game. The horse still jumps in an L shape, the bishop still moves diagonally, and rook in straight lines, but each game is different depending upon how each piece is moved and how your opponent moves theirs. It's the same idea in that Arianne and Cersei get to play the same game, but depending upon how they move their pieces the outcome will be different. Cersei and Arianne are the same piece...like they are both the Queen on the board, but a lot of times the end result will be the opposite as Cersei was successful in becoming Queen, but Arianne failed to crown Myrcella. Of course Arianne wasn't trying to crown herself, but she did want to become her father's heir and be Lady of Dorne.
|
|