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Post by Paulus on May 8, 2016 15:43:14 GMT
Here's a thought, if the main house are major players - the lesser houses clearly are not. If the Lannisters have a house of beasts - the Cleganes - who do the current Lannisters (Martells) get?
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Post by Paulus on May 8, 2016 15:43:44 GMT
Arianne and Cersei don't have to be alike or completely opposite either. It's just that the wheel of time has provided opportunities for them that they choose to play out according to their desires and abilities. Similar situations, differing results. Like setting up a chess game. The horse still jumps in an L shape, the bishop still moves diagonally, and rook in straight lines, but each game is different depending upon how each piece is moved and how your opponent moves theirs. It's the same idea in that Arianne and Cersei get to play the same game, but depending upon how they move their pieces the outcome will be different. Cersei and Arianne are the same piece...like they are both the Queen on the board, but a lot of times the end result will be the opposite as Cersei was successful in becoming Queen, but Arianne failed to crown Myrcella. Of course Arianne wasn't trying to crown herself, but she did want to become her father's heir and be Lady of Dorne. Understood xD
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 15:50:11 GMT
If the martell's are reliving the lannister's then it makes sense to look at Arianne as a younger version of Cersei. The thing that makes me wonder about Robert being the original soiled knight is that Robert ended up very important, and Oakheart doesn't seem very important at all. Heh, I know how Melifeather is going to answer this, so I'll leave her to it. But now you've reminded me of it, something just occurred to me about the reversal of the houses. If the show is anything to go by then it's fitting that both Doran and Tyrstane were killed off. It parallels the death's of both Rickard and Brandon. With both of them dead, and you'd have make it Arianne that dies in the books, then it leave house Martell with a Lord of Sunspeare that was never meant to rule, just like Ned. Only in this case Trystane is the one who inherit the title.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 15:57:58 GMT
Oh Melifeather I just thought of something else... I forgot about Quentyn! Now since he's burnt alive, just like Rickard, it would suggest that Doran will be strangled. This is of course based on the evidence of the show, but there is already that parallel with being burnt in the books. I know Quentyn is not the heir to Sunspeare, Arianne is, but at one point she was convinced that Doran was going to pass her over in favour of Q.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 16:00:09 GMT
Doran is Tywin, and Trystane is Tyrion. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, so it is possible that Trystane will also try to kill Doran, or he may save Doran. We haven't come upon an inversion chapter for the Starks, so I don't know whose lives they are reliving. They may have changed places with the Daynes, or they may actually stay the Starks, only their lives are upside down...which now that I think of it, it is.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 16:07:38 GMT
Doran is Tywin, and Trystane is Tyrion. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, so it is possible that Trystane will also try to kill Doran, or he may save Doran. We haven't come upon an inversion chapter for the Starks, so I don't know whose lives they are reliving. They may have changed places with the Daynes, or they may actually stay the Starks, only their lives are upside down...which now that I think of it, it is. Ok I see, but don't we have a parallel for Brandon and Rickard somewhere? I could've sworn we did. Not in this chapter I don't think, but I remember a mention of them paralleling something.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 16:23:54 GMT
Doran is Tywin, and Trystane is Tyrion. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, so it is possible that Trystane will also try to kill Doran, or he may save Doran. We haven't come upon an inversion chapter for the Starks, so I don't know whose lives they are reliving. They may have changed places with the Daynes, or they may actually stay the Starks, only their lives are upside down...which now that I think of it, it is. Ok I see, but don't we have a parallel for Brandon and Rickard somewhere? I could've sworn we did. Not in this chapter I don't think, but I remember a mention of them paralleling something. In the Captain of Guards the killing of Oberyn symbolized the deaths of Brandon and Rickard when the Sand Snakes ride up separately and ask Doran for vengeance.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 17:18:26 GMT
In the Captain of Guards the killing of Oberyn symbolized the deaths of Brandon and Rickard when the Sand Snakes ride up separately and ask Doran for vengeance. Thanks! It was annoying me, I couldn't recall where we discussed it.
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Post by essosiwatch on Aug 27, 2017 21:55:58 GMT
My theory is that Arianne=Rhaegar. Arys Oakheart=Ashara Dayne. My own crackpot is that these chapters, they are Under the sea. Under the sea, the smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. Under the sea, you fall up. Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. So, under the sea, things are inversed and sometimes slightly different.
In The Soiled Knight bubble we have these ingredients:
A princess, a knight from the Reach, a girl who would become a queen, sexual relationship where one uses the other.
Inversion: A prince, a lady from Dorne, sister of a Kingsguard (from Dorne bc in this chapter Arys muses how unlikely is for Oakheart even be in Dorne and how there is longtime enmity between Oakhearts and Dornishmen), a girl who was the Queen of love and beauty; sexual relationship, probably one sided. This chapter imo throws some light on Rhaegar x Ashara relationship. It's one-sided, and not only that. Remember the mentions of a street vendor, grilling chunks of snake over a brazier? And that the best snake stew has a drop of venom in it, along with mustard seeds and dragon peppers? And how such a dish burns more coming out than it does coming in? GRRM had to laugh his smart a$$ off writing this. And then later, we are served crackling in the house's ceiling, painting of Nymeria, Dornish symbol, and freaking dragon peering through the window! Now what am I supposed to make of these symbols of betrayal, Dorne and dragon in a bubble where Rhaegar spents a night with Ashara? And what does the mustard seed mean?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 27, 2017 23:21:22 GMT
And what does the mustard seed mean? Well, there's the Biblical parallel, something that GRRM as a lapsed Catholic would probably know: He set another man before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches." — Matthew 13:31–32 He said, “How will we liken the Kingdom of God? Or with what parable will we illustrate it? It’s like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, though it is less than all the seeds that are on the earth, yet when it is sown, grows up, and becomes greater than all the herbs, and puts out great branches, so that the birds of the sky can lodge under its shadow.” — Mark 4:30–32 He said, “What is the Kingdom of God like? To what shall I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and put in his own garden. It grew, and became a large tree, and the birds of the sky lodged in its branches.” — Luke 13:18–19 In other words, greatness can spring from the humblest of beginnings. Interesting implications, no?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 28, 2017 0:06:22 GMT
I remember a lot of kids having mustard seeds as a charm back in parochial school.
And since I have JRRT on the brain today - the mustard seed reminds me of Sam's box of earth from Galadriel. It contained a tiny seed that grew into a Mallorn tree, replacing the Party Tree that was felled during the Scourge, and whose flowers made the whole Shire appear golden.
Mallorns were used in Lothlorien for flets - treetop shelters, homes etc - by the Elves because they grew to enormous heights. The leaves were also used to wrap lembas.
Not surprised GRRM would nod to Tolkein, or then again maybe he was just hungry.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 28, 2017 10:48:27 GMT
My theory is that Arianne=Rhaegar. Arys Oakheart=Ashara Dayne. My own crackpot is that these chapters, they are Under the sea.Under the sea, the smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. Under the sea, you fall up. Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. So, under the sea, things are inversed and sometimes slightly different. In The Soiled Knight bubble we have these ingredients: A princess, a knight from the Reach, a girl who would become a queen, sexual relationship where one uses the other. Inversion: A prince, a lady from Dorne, sister of a Kingsguard (from Dorne bc in this chapter Arys muses how unlikely is for Oakheart even be in Dorne and how there is longtime enmity between Oakhearts and Dornishmen), a girl who was the Queen of love and beauty; sexual relationship, probably one sided. This chapter imo throws some light on Rhaegar x Ashara relationship. It's one-sided, and not only that. Remember the mentions of a street vendor, grilling chunks of snake over a brazier? And that the best snake stew has a drop of venom in it, along with mustard seeds and dragon peppers? And how such a dish burns more coming out than it does coming in? GRRM had to laugh his smart a$$ off writing this. And then later, we are served crackling in the house's ceiling, painting of Nymeria, Dornish symbol, and freaking dragon peering through the window! Now what am I supposed to make of these symbols of betrayal, Dorne and dragon in a bubble where Rhaegar spents a night with Ashara? And what does the mustard seed mean? Well hello there essosiwatch! Welcome to our little forum! I am pleased that you've read the essay and that you've brought your own interpretation to share! It's all a bit like being Melisandre reading the flames and interpreting what you've just seen. I agree that under the sea things are inverted and a bit different, but I was imagining mirrored images mainly by geography so that's how I think the Lannister's past is being reflected by the Martells. Arianne and Doran are reprising situations that Cersei and Tywin have experienced. That is why I believe Arianne trying to crown Myrcella is the mirrored inversion of Cersei preventing Lyanna from being crowned. I'm with you regarding the Rhaegar & Ashara pairing. I think Ashara and Elia were as close as sisters and may have shared Rhaegar's bed. Especially considering Elia's delicate health. If Rhaegar wanted more children they may have looked to Ashara as a true handmaiden much like handmaidens were used in Biblical times.
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Post by essosiwatch on Aug 31, 2017 5:20:39 GMT
Thank you guys for your warm welcome you all are awesome and inspiring! You are absolutely right about the reading the flames. We see what we want to see😀 and I bet it's meant to be like that. These chapters are like the Rorschach test, it's possible to see different images. Anyhow, I figured what mustard seed means, at least for me. It took me quite a time, you probably figured I'm not native English. Mustard seed aka the eye of the newt. Freaking lizards. Also mentioned in The Princess in the Tower, where that book about dragons somehow made them as interesting as newts. Thanks for hearing me out, you and your theories are such a great inspiration for me. Your post made me to google The Parable of the Mustard Seed and I learned about the eye of the newt, thanks.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 31, 2017 13:31:02 GMT
Anyhow, I figured what mustard seed means, at least for me. It took me quite a time, you probably figured I'm not native English. Mustard seed aka the eye of the newt. Freaking lizards. Would you explain the connection between mustard seed and eye of newt? I'm not clear on how they relate. Don't worry about the English, it's perfectly understandable. Or you can type in your native language and we can use Google Translate, if that's easier.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 13:43:58 GMT
Mustard seed aka the eye of the newt. Eye of newt is a classic ingredient in witches brews - I really like this association. Would you explain the connection between mustard seed and eye of newt? I did a quick search and found this from Macbeth Interesting eh? And the premise is that
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