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Post by Ser Duncan on Dec 1, 2016 16:04:00 GMT
Gods damn it, I've written and rewritten what I'd like to ask you guys about 5 times now, and each time the sentence makes no sense whatsoever. Think I'll do it in a sequence of events type thing.
Ok so Dolores escapes Logan, then returns to the town with the white church with the steeple, this time she sees all the hosts in the church going mad, not all dead on the streets, she goes down into the facility through the confessional box and there she sees all that carnage and Ford running after Arnold. Meanwhile we see Teddy in a town that looks exactly like this town going around killing everyone of the hosts, and that syncs with what Dolores remembered the first time. So my question is, did Dolores get there before Teddy and she was downstairs, presumably killing Arnold, there by avoiding being killed? Making both Dolores and Teddy the sole survivors of that horrible incident. And does all this happen before William and Logan enter the park?
The reason I ask is because the MiB had a line in an earlier episode about how 'the park was started over 30 years ago and it would've ended then, right after the death of Arnold, if not for me.' Now that we know the MiB is on the board, I would imagine he got that position for whatever services he rendered at the time of Arnold's death. But neither Logan nor William seem to know who Arnold is/was. So can William still be the MiB if he doesn't know who Arnold is, and if the narrative he's in happened after the incident that lead to Arnold's death?
Also why does Ford say that Maeve killed herself after the death of her child? We saw those events last week, it was the MiB testing his level of evil by killing an innocent woman and child. Is Ford unaware or is he covering for the MiB?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 1, 2016 16:27:15 GMT
Both Dolores and Teddy change costumes multiple times in the flashbacks, so I have my own confusions about timelines.
There are no town/church scenes with Dolores in pants with a stomach wound, that would be the only one truly continuing her scene with Logan and William.
Yet, her story arrives at the town/church multiple times - after the Logan/William visit, which presumably only happens one single time. The only conclusion is that Dolores repeatedly arrives at the church/town through multiple attempts throughout her lifespan.
Hope all that makes sense. But what I wanted to point out is that Teddy is a murderous sheriff in one of those arcs, not a murderous soldier sidekick. Again, all of this happens multiple times.
OK back to the MiB. I haven't seen anything that could mean he isn't William. What we see of William is his first time going through, he wouldn't have known about Arnold up to then.
Maeve collapsed in the field with the dead girl, then ended up in the shop, presumably brought down there for repairs etc. The thing is that she remembered the attack, and remembered it even after being programmed to chill out. So she did "kill herself".
But, I still have my suspicions that ALL hosts are based on real people, just like Arnold was. So maybe the real Maeve did kill herself after the death of her child.
We also got a hint that even Theresa Cullen was a host, in one of Bernarnold's flashbacks. How would a host have flashbacks from Arnold's actual life if he were not somehow... really Arnold? From his blood DNA flesh memories whatever.
I need a deep breath ahaha
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 1, 2016 18:00:11 GMT
I wonder if we can draw any clues from the original movie? It "happened" about 30 years ago. I can't recall if both Logan and William survive, but the MiB is very hard to kill. Maybe Logan and William are Ford and Arnold?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Dec 1, 2016 18:09:01 GMT
There are no town/church scenes with Dolores in pants with a stomach wound, that would be the only one truly continuing her scene with Logan and William. But there was one in which she had the stomach wound in the trousers, I think. I'd have to go back and rewatch, but I thought I remembered one earlier on with her not dressed in her usual blue dress and her holding her guts. Could just be wishful thinking on my part though. So basically what we're talking about is Ford's new narrative I think. Ford said to Bernarnold that he wanted him to join him in this new, ultimate narrative he was creating. If we remember back to his conversation with Boy he says to him 'do you remember a town with a white church' or something along the lines, and Boy says yes he does, Ford replies 'I thought you would'. So this new narrative is probably the replaying of that first park, in the town that is now buried in sand. So are we seeing flashbacks and flashforwards here? As in Ford's already got it running with just the Hosts and he's working out scenarios for how it will work out, and that is what Teddy is remembering, those run throughs? Plus, Ford took a helluva long time in building Arnold as Bernard. That flashback had Ford only slightly younger than he is now. Not the younger version of him in that picture and in Dolores' memories of what happened. The Ford in that memory matches what Bernard said to Elsie and ThorTech said as well, that Bernard had been there for the past ten years. So Ford waited 20 years to build Arnold into a host? What's that about? Especially when you combine it with Ford asking Dolores when she last spoke with Arnold and her replying 30yrs, Xdays, Xsec, but then turning around and immediately contacting Arnold no sooner Ford leaves the room. I don't get it. Was she actually talking with the MiB and the data transfer thing that Charlotte was discussing with him? Sorry for the brain dump, this show has got me running in circles everytime I remember another bit of information from previous episodes.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 1, 2016 19:26:53 GMT
I need to rewatch the last two eps and refresh my memory. However, I think we are seeing multiple time periods in each of these segments, and by 'multiple' I mean 'more than four'. Some of it may even be just Dolores' individual memories/flashbacks infiltrating one of her timelines; hence the outfit changes and glitchy stuff. Her various narrative developments are starting to merge and since there are so many, the sequencing is getting all jumbled and the stories are blending..."I'm in a dream". At one point I think Dolores may be on solo walkabout and retracing her steps with William, but I'm not sure if this is physically occurring or if it's her program doing the work, if that makes sense. Yet, her story arrives at the town/church multiple times - after the Logan/William visit, which presumably only happens one single time. The only conclusion is that Dolores repeatedly arrives at the church/town through multiple attempts throughout her lifespan. YES. It's part of her loop, I think possibly intended to see if she will exercise free will and make independent choices that defy programming - much like Berndroid's numerous opportunities to join Ford that he keeps turning down. Ford is putting them through many series of tests. The hosts are literally rats in the Maze: trial after trial of experimentation - reward or detriment-based - that shows analysts if/how they learn and change over time. Seriously, check out this link. Look at the various types of mazes and what type of learning/behavior is being studied with each. It all comes down to CHOICES. The Little Girl tells the MiB "the maze is not meant for you." She's right - it's for the hosts. If they can make the right choices, if they navigate the maze in record time based on those choices, they can be free. But what IS free? Are they taken out of the Maze for good and decommissioned (which could be considered freedom, I guess, the sweet release of death and the 'suffering' that Arnold thought made them human)? Surely Ford wouldn't have interest in letting hosts that have reached full sentience just run around and do whatever they want now.... So this new narrative is probably the replaying of that first park, in the town that is now buried in sand. So are we seeing flashbacks and flashforwards here? I think so...from what I can tell, the scene with Ford and FordBoy looking out at the burned steeple is from "recent past" and not "current time", and he has since developed the new narrative that we're now seeing with Teddy. IMO some of the other snippets we've seen - like Ford talking to Teddy, and Ford/Teresa at the hotel - may have been in the recent past as well. The new narrative smacks of being reminiscent of the critical failure from 30 years ago - also, I'm wondering if Maeve is going to be playing the part of Dolores The Judas Steer this time around. Perhaps Dolores can no longer be trusted to do the job. " Judas Steer - Part of the cowboy’s job during the drive was to identify the Judas steer. Once at the end of the trail, the Judas could simply lead the other cattle to slaughter with no hassle. If a particularly good Judas was found, he was spared the meat hook and used again. After all of the herd had been led into the slaughterhouse, they would extract the Judas steer and return it to the farm for future use." "24 March 1900, New York Times, pg. 2: “JUDAS ISCARIOT”—BUTCHERED Armour’s Veteran “Leading” Sheep Pays the Penalty at Last. CHICAGO, March 23.—After having led thousands of confiding sheep to their death, “Judas Iscariot,” as he is called in the yards of Armour & Co., has paid the penalty of his treachery and has been butchered. For eight years “Judas Iscariot” has been the “leading” sheep for the company. Last week Judas rebelled. He refused to work, and his execution was decided upon. It is said by stockmen that a sudden attachment for a snow-white feminine sheep among the victims is responsible for his rebellion and ultimate death."
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 1, 2016 22:51:48 GMT
"24 March 1900, New York Times, pg. 2: “JUDAS ISCARIOT”—BUTCHERED Armour’s Veteran “Leading” Sheep Pays the Penalty at Last. CHICAGO, March 23.—After having led thousands of confiding sheep to their death, “Judas Iscariot,” as he is called in the yards of Armour & Co., has paid the penalty of his treachery and has been butchered. For eight years “Judas Iscariot” has been the “leading” sheep for the company. Last week Judas rebelled. He refused to work, and his execution was decided upon. It is said by stockmen that a sudden attachment for a snow-white feminine sheep among the victims is responsible for his rebellion and ultimate death." That the saddest thing I ever read. Other than Lady and Grey Wind being butchered of course.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 1, 2016 23:05:21 GMT
Last week Judas rebelled. He refused to work, and his execution was decided upon. It is said by stockmen that a sudden attachment for a snow-white feminine sheep among the victims is responsible for his rebellion and ultimate death." AWW! Seriously, check out this link. Look at the various types of mazes and what type of learning/behavior is being studied with each. It all comes down to CHOICES. The Little Girl tells the MiB "the maze is not meant for you." She's right - it's for the hosts. If they can make the right choices, if they navigate the maze in record time based on those choices, they can be free. But what IS free? Are they taken out of the Maze for good and decommissioned (which could be considered freedom, I guess, the sweet release of death and the 'suffering' that Arnold thought made them human)? Surely Ford wouldn't have interest in letting hosts that have reached full sentience just run around and do whatever they want now.... Completely agree.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 1, 2016 23:15:07 GMT
The Little Girl tells the MiB "the maze is not meant for you." She's right - it's for the hosts. If they can make the right choices, if they navigate the maze in record time based on those choices, they can be free. But what IS free? Are they taken out of the Maze for good and decommissioned (which could be considered freedom, I guess, the sweet release of death and the 'suffering' that Arnold thought made them human)? Didn't the MiB confirm that the blonde pioneer woman/sartorial train escort had been through the maze? Is the prize the knowledge (that they're hosts) that Maeve received in a different way? Is the prize further that they aren't subjected to certain in-house rules - that they can't be killed for example? We've got that masked Ghost Nation version of Gregor Clegane for example, the posse of cannibal (?) companions to the blonde Prairie Vogue editor, and the gang that attacks Gale's brother?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 1, 2016 23:21:53 GMT
just a note on the cannibalism, which I'm pretty sure we witnessed...
If the hosts are essentially the same wetware as humans, they'd have the same physical needs. Of course many of them are reset after a day's time... unless they're being held in the narrative of a guest. So they'd need to eat etc. We somewhat see that with the stuck loop of cowboys around the fire, complaining they haven't cooked supper yet because the Stray isn't around to light the fire.
So in general, the guests stay a week or two at most. If they engaged a host for the that amount of time, ok. The host would be reset to the start of their narrative when the guest left.
But we have the MiB who stays for a month at a time, possibly more. We see how far he brings Teddy out of his narrative.
So how can Dolores survive so long for her multiple journeys to the town with the church? Does William allow it by coming back and continuously engaging her? Is that was the MiB is doing at the Abernathy Ranch, saving Dolores from her script so she can journey to the Confessional?
/ramble
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 1, 2016 23:25:54 GMT
AND the same actor who played Bernarnolds's son played the little boy who met Dolores when she was painting, a one time occurence.
Was the dying boy real once?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 2, 2016 21:50:05 GMT
Didn't the MiB confirm that the blonde pioneer woman/sartorial train escort had been through the maze? Ahhh, I had forgotten that. And Wyatt's men and the Ghost Nation folk that seem immune to weaponry. I wonder if, once they gain full sentience, they level up? To the game with real stakes, the one MiB is trying to play? They're now at like a +15 Endurance / +25 Healing / +8 Perception or whatever. Maybe once you move on to the higher levels, the folks stuck in the lower ones don't have the required skills to touch you? So how can Dolores survive so long for her multiple journeys to the town with the church? Does William allow it by coming back and continuously engaging her? Is that was the MiB is doing at the Abernathy Ranch, saving Dolores from her script so she can journey to the Confessional? Good question. Maybe there's a "biological necessity" override in their programming or something. They're robots, technically there's no need for them to eat or drink or pee to keep the wetware running. AND the same actor who played Bernarnolds's son played the little boy who met Dolores when she was painting, a one time occurence. Was the dying boy real once? Methinks all the hosts were real once. Their DNA - guests, family, employees - has been captured by Delos and is used to build whatever they want, whenever they want. If I had to guess, I would say that "Charlie" was indeed Arnold's son. I wonder if Ford (re)made him as a gift to Arnold, which is why Arnold was yelling at him in the flashback.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 2, 2016 22:05:06 GMT
I wonder if, once they gain full sentience, they level up? To the game with real stakes, the one MiB is trying to play? They're now at like a +15 Endurance / +25 Healing / +8 Perception or whatever. Maybe once you move on to the higher levels, the folks stuck in the lower ones don't have the required skills to touch you? Very cool way of describing it, and why not? Skill levels are a thing for certain in the show. When Maeve and Felix are messing with them. it actually reminded my of games where you could hack a skill slider. Nice. Methinks all the hosts were real once. Their DNA - guests, family, employees - has been captured by Delos and is used to build whatever they want, whenever they want. If I had to guess, I would say that "Charlie" was indeed Arnold's son. I wonder if Ford (re)made him as a gift to Arnold, which is why Arnold was yelling at him in the flashback. Well since Arnold remade Ford's family... Charlie could be either Arnold's son or Arnold himself. Where they friends from when they were children? There was the weirdness with Boy Ford's brother, right? And the Delos TOS where they state that fluids, blood etc belong to them. I'm 99.999999% certain that all hosts were based on real people.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 2, 2016 23:17:12 GMT
ell since Arnold remade Ford's family... Charlie could be either Arnold's son or Arnold himself. Where they friends from when they were children? There was the weirdness with Boy Ford's brother, right? Yep. Still don't know what that's about. Or anything with the Ford family, really - the alcoholic father, FordBoy killing the dog....
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 20:58:11 GMT
Even though I've been sneaking spoilers here all this past week I hadn't watched this episode until today, and WOW! Lots of revelations! Too bad Bernard/Arnold couldn't figure out a way to at least get a shot off at Ford! Of course he can't die, otherwise it would spoil the show! I can't wait to find out why Dolores killed him.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 3, 2016 21:53:52 GMT
Of course he can't die, otherwise it would spoil the show! I figure that hosts in the park get shot through the head all the time. They just get patched up and reset, so I'm guessing that's what's in store for Bernarnold. And Theresa? And Stubbs? And Elsie??
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