|
Post by Melifeather on Nov 30, 2016 18:10:29 GMT
I am amazed what you two have dug up for the symbolism behind weeping tears of blood. Does this mean that we should suspect "divine" intervention at the tower of joy, or because of the smell of roses it's a fake scene? Or some of both? I was wondering if Howland had a hand in any of this considering his experience on the Isle of Faces, his prayer and involvement with the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and his credit that Ned gave him for saving him from death by Dayne. I don't know. I think the abduction story is a hoax for all the reasons that have been stated including justification for Robert's Rebellion itself. I don't think Lyanna was ever at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna is only associated with it in Ned's dreams. Elements of dreams stand in for other things troubling or familiar to the dreamer and are mixed up with elements of events. I do find it interesting that Martin places a weeping woman statue at the Eyrie. An Eyrie is an eagle's nest and the eagle is associated with Zeus and is his personal symbol along with the thunderbolt, bull, and oak tree. Thor is also associated with eagles, thunderbolts etc. The Eyrie is Robert Baratheon's 'nest' for a time. The Eyrie might also be considered a kind of crow's nest perched on top of the Giant's Lance. I've always wondered about the symbolism of the constuction of the gates, way castles etc and I wonder if we are being told something. Is it possible that Lyanna went to the Eyrie after Harrenhall? Why travel all the way back North and South again for Brandon's wedding? Did Robert take advantage of Lyanna at the Eyrie symbolized by the struggle and the broken torso of the weeping woman taking a wound in the torso or womb? Consider the approach to the Eyrie the Bloody Gate: loss of virginity the Moon Gate: female reproductive cycle the Snow Gate: conception Robert's deathbed conversation with Ned is also interesting. He's drugged, his mind is wandering through past and present. His thoughts are on seeing Lyanna: On the surface, Robert's grief seems to be about Danaerys; but I question whether this is a darker secret involving Lyanna. With nobody at the Eyrie to tell him no. The question of divine intervention is interesting. If Ned was supposed to die and this was a green dream of Howland's; the life that paid for death might be Lyanna's since Ned is still god's instrument. Ned also wonders why the gods fill men with lust. Lyanna's pregnancy may have been as 'ordained' as Bran's fall from the tower. I do like the symbolism of the statue and what happened to it, however I'm still stuck on my inversions theory, so since Catelyn Stark took Tyrion Lannister hostage and brought him to her sister in the Vale, I would expect Kevan or Jaime Lannister to take Lyanna Stark hostage and bring her to his brother/father somewhere in the Westerlands. Since Ashara and Lyanna's fates are intertwined it was Ashara that actually ended up at the Eyrie. Also, Ned seemed determined that Arya be taught to fight with a sword, so it seems apparent to me that Lyanna was actually injured by a sword. Theon's dream of Lyanna included blood spatter on her gown, and Little Myrcella who I believe is Lyanna's inversion suffered a sword gash across her face and lost an ear. IMO Lyanna was saved from being killed by her kidnappers by Arthur Dayne who was perhaps helping Ashara. It may be that the three of them came across Robert and Robert offers to take Lyanna to Storms End while Arthur continues with Ashara to the Vale. I still think Robert was part of the kidnapping plot, but his true identity was concealed under armor designed to look like Rhaegar's, so Lyanna wouldn't have known he was involved, and if she was raped she would have thought it was Rhaegar. By the time Ned gets to Storms End Lyanna had already been moved to the tower of joy. Robert concealed her whereabouts from Ned and sent Lannister men to bring her to the tower of joy where she is found by Ned after the sack. She would be near death and too weak to explain much, just to beg him to bring her body back home. Even if she could explain anything she could have still been under the assumption that her kidnappers brought her there.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 1:24:08 GMT
Ack! If Jon and Dany are both christ redeemer characters and Lyanna is the madonna in Jon's case; where is Dany's madonna if it isn't Septa Lamore; who is essentially the Westerosi version of a nun.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 13:33:58 GMT
Another thought concerning Lyanna the 'wolf maid' and her wolf blood causing her death. Consider that Sansa loses her wolf protection when 'Lady' is killed and then her bones are buried at Winterfell. "Lady went south and only her bones were returned to the North."
What if Lyanna was protecting a Lady and went south with her. Say Ashara Dayne? This would fit with the christian notion that you can appeal to the virgin for protection and it would be in charater for Lyanna if she was also the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Was Ashara another 'madonna' also giving Lyanna protection?
Going back to the symbolism at the Eyrie and the waterfall Alyssa's Tear... The tears of lys com to mind.
So could a bed of blood result from a slow poisoning affecting the bowels and belly with a sickness? Perhaps cause bleeding from the abdomen? Could they choke off your breath so you are only capable for whispering? It seems that maesters have a broad knowledge of poisons and Starfall is very close to the Citadel. If someone wanted to get rid of the future queen; this looks like a good opportunity.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 14:11:09 GMT
So that was a complete search of all books on the tears of lys and the only other character with knowledge of it and suggests using it, is Varys.
I favor Varys over Pycelle as Lyanna's assassin because his little birds are everywhere and he has control of Dany at some point. It's likely that he knew of Jon and Lyanna as well if they were at Starfall with Ashara. Which puts some weight behind Arya overhearing Varys and Mopatis. Ned Stark having the bastard and the book; Varys' knowledge of identity of the 8th unknown bastard and Arya's 'out of the mouths of children' statement that he was talking about Jon. Varys may have removed Lyanna and the heir to the throne to make way for the Lannisters and Cersei.
So how does Lyanna fall in with Ashara and company? Does this have something to do with Rhaegar, Ser Arthur travelling to Harrenhal or thereabouts. Was it to retrieve Ashara and return her to Starfall? Did they meet at the Inn of the Crossroads where Rhaegar and Lyanna are seen together and tongues wag. Rhaegar and his party split up with Arthur Dayne going somewhere and Rhaegar going somewhere else. There's no talk of Lyanna because Ned knows something about the reason she fled from Robert. But may think she is with Rhaegar. Hence Brandon runs off to confront Rhaegar.
Did Rhaegar and Ser Arthur both give their protection to Ashara and Lyanna. Were the KG guarding them at Starfall until they were drawn away to the ToJ? Was Lyanna then poisoned and Danaerys stolen? Did Rhaegar also place his own son Aegon with them for safe keeping? That would be a compelling reason for the KG to be away south.
Ned is then involved in the baby swap. Ashara goes to Pentos with Aegon as a common boy; and Jon, the heir apparent goes to Winterfell with his 'father'.
Hence, respect for Arthur and no hard feelings towards Rhaegar. Ned promises Lyanna to protect the children and aids Ashara with her identity switch. Let the world think they are dead.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 1, 2016 16:40:16 GMT
More questions than answers! lol Where's WeaselPie's fist shake at Walys?
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 17:42:34 GMT
Another thought occurs to me about the broke weeping woman statue at the Eyrie. It's broken in the stomach area which could also point to Lyanna poisoned by the tears of Lys. And I wonder if the cut to the thigh and the broken arm suggest that Lyanna was in a fight and recieved those wounds perhaps in protecting Ashara? Then Lyanna goes with Arthur to Starfall via the Quiet Island and Ashara goes with Rhaegar to retrieve his son? Since Rhaegar's party splits up.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 1, 2016 17:49:42 GMT
Another thought occurs to me about the broke weeping woman statue at the Eyrie. It's broken in the stomach area which could also point to Lyanna poisoned by the tears of Lys. And I wonder if the cut to the thigh and the broken arm suggest that Lyanna was in a fight and recieved those wounds perhaps in protecting Ashara? Then Lyanna goes with Arthur to Starfall via the Quiet Island and Ashara goes with Rhaegar to retrieve his son? Since Rhaegar's party splits up. While I do believe Lyanna and Arthur cross paths, Rhaegar was down south. IMO he rode up with the 10,000 Dornish, but then rode on ahead, stopped at Kings Landing, convinced Aeyrs to send a raven to Tywin, spoke to Jaime, and then continued to the Trident.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 2, 2016 7:28:06 GMT
Lyanna was... fond of flowers.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 2, 2016 8:02:17 GMT
Queen of Thorns:
Olenna was betrothed to Prince Daeron Targaryen when they were both nine,[6] but she claims she did everything she could to make sure it never came to fruition.[3] According to maesters it was Daeron who broke the betrothal when they were eighteen in 246 AC,[6] but Olenna speaks contemptuously of the oddness of House Targaryen.[3]
A Clash of Kings
After the death of King Renly Baratheon, Lord Petyr Baelish is sent to Bitterbridge to negotiate an alliance between House Lannister and House Tyrell, including a marriage between King Joffrey I Baratheon and Margaery Tyrell, Renly's widow and Olenna's granddaughter.[12] During the negotiations, Lady Olenna asks Petyr pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. Petyr praises Joffrey to the skies, but secretly uses some of his escorts to plant disturbing rumors about the king among the servants at Highgarden, thereby creating doubts about the truth of his official statements.[10]
Lady Olenna comes to King's Landing to attend the wedding of Margaery to Joffrey. During a supper with Margaery and a number of noble ladies of houses sworn to the Tyrells, Olenna sharply questions Sansa Stark about Joffrey's nature. She refuses to listen to Sansa's evasions and half truths about Joffrey and gets Sansa to speak the truth about Joffrey's cruelty and the beatings he gave her. To prevent any potential spy from listening to Sansa, Olenna orders her jester, Butterbumps, to sing loudly. She also compares her son, Lord Mace, to a puff fish of the Summer Isles.[3]
Olenna plots with Margaery to marry Sansa to her grandson Willas without letting Lord Mace know about it.[3] However, Sansa unwisely tells Dontos Hollard about the plan[13] and Dontos supposedly shares the information with Petyr. Lord Baelish foils the plot by telling Lord Tywin Lannister about it, who quickly marries Sansa to his own son, Tyrion.[14][13]
In turn, Olenna sabotages Tywin's plan to marry his widowed daughter, Queen Regent Cersei Lannister, to Willas, the heir to Highgarden. Although Mace is originally inclined to accept the offer, Olenna belabors her son and talks him out of it, arguing that Cersei is too old and too used for Willas. Tywin learns about this from Lord Varys and shares the information with Tyrion, but orders Tyrion not to tell Cersei about the reason and rather act as if the offer has never been made.[15]
Olenna seems to share the general aversion of the Tyrells against House Martell. During an ugly confrontation in the yard of the Red Keep, she calls Oberyn Martell's paramour, Ellaria Sand, "the serpent's whore".[16]
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 2, 2016 11:55:37 GMT
Flowers and thorns are mentioned quite a bit in connection with Lyanna. It does make you wonder what house Tyrell was doing during that time. Lady Dustin is quite distrustful of maesters due to whatever it was that Walys did.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 2, 2016 14:17:07 GMT
Flowers and thorns are mentioned quite a bit in connection with Lyanna. It does make you wonder what house Tyrell was doing during that time. Lady Dustin is quite distrustful of maesters due to whatever it was that Walys did. I put my head down for a minute and woke up in the middle of the night with visions of UFO's dancing round my head. Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes- Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Walys steals the wolfmaid
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 2, 2016 15:53:10 GMT
Flowers and thorns are mentioned quite a bit in connection with Lyanna. It does make you wonder what house Tyrell was doing during that time. Lady Dustin is quite distrustful of maesters due to whatever it was that Walys did. I put my head down for a minute and woke up in the middle of the night with visions of UFO's dancing round my head. Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes- Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Walys steals the wolfmaid HEY! I think you may be onto something! I can agree with most of what you propose. Maybe Rhaegar wasn't trying to foil an alliance, but to message the Starks that the Tyrells are with them? My position is that Rhaegar thought he was part of the rebels.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 2, 2016 16:12:06 GMT
Also, don't forget that Mace Tyrell bent the knee to Ned almost instantly and without a fight when Ned came to lift the siege at Storm's End. I've always been of the mind that Mace parked his army there simply to stall Stannis and his men, not kill them. Hence also why Randyll Tarly didn't seem to be invited to join that party, despite having been the only commander to win a battle against the rebels to date.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 2, 2016 16:31:26 GMT
Also, don't forget that Mace Tyrell bent the knee to Ned almost instantly and without a fight when Ned came to lift the siege at Storm's End. I've always been of the mind that Mace parked his army there simply to stall Stannis and his men, not kill them. Hence also why Randyll Tarly didn't seem to be invited to join that party, despite having been the only commander to win a battle against the rebels to date. It would explain quite a bit.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 2, 2016 16:52:15 GMT
As Lady Barbrey says the grey rats worm their way into your confidence and know your secrets. What was Lyanna's secret... that she was pregnant with Robert's bastard? Why didn't he give her tansy tea? Because she was more valuable as a game piece and, ahem... moved for safe keeping? Is this why Benjen went to the Wall and the Stark's weren't looking for her? But of course everyone who knew about the disappearance would be looking for her. If Walys knew about her pregnancy; that's valuable intel... any number of people could have known she was pregnant Tywin, Rhaegar, the Citadel, Varys and the Tyrell's.
If Rhaegar found her first; tongues will wag and the campaign of misinformation begins. Who benefits if it isn't Tywin who also has the king's ear? Is it possible that Lyanna was moved to Starfall and Ashara sent word to Ned of her whereabouts. That might be one of Ned's secrets.
|
|