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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 22:16:56 GMT
Looks like it was disbanded well before the ToHH
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 3, 2016 22:23:15 GMT
OR, Lyanna riding with a bastard of a future king in her belly? Namely Robert. Unless I mistake your meaning here by positing that a Blackfyre is the father? That is one of my crackpots, yes. It runs into the same "jon's age" issue as some of the other theories, but I keep it in reserve. Idea being that Lyanna-as-Wenda had an affair with TSK and had a child "of the blood" that would be of interest to a Targaryen perhaps looking to hatch some dragons or perform some other blood magic voodoo. I have zero proof of this, of course. Anyway, my take on this passage is that this is one of many parallels to be seen between Arya/Sandor and Lyanna/Somebody. I haven't worked it all out yet but there are lots of echoes in Arya's journey. 1) Arya is traveling with the Hound in something of a 'hostile companion' situation after escaping the BWB and being captured by Sandor. 2) The Hound originally was taking her to the Twins to ransom her to her family, but of course they arrived with the worst timing. 3) Arya, in Sandor's presence, semi-witnesses the deaths of her mother and brother. (There's a parallel here between Lord Frey's deception - massacre in guise of a wedding - and and Aerys' deception - massacre in the guise of trial by combat.) 4) Her captor "saves" her at the Twins, but then opts to take her East to the Eyrie for his personal financial gain. (Note: this is when Arya toys with the idea of returning to the BWB. Ironically, this is also the chapter where she begins experiencing her wolf dreams every night in full technicolor.) 5) High Road is closed, can't get there. Plans change and they head to Riverrun. Oops, Riverrun under siege. Turn back. 6) They arrive at the Inn at the Crossroads, where they encounter two of the Mountain's men and a squire. They fight, Gregor's men are killed, Sandor takes a wound. 7) They travel toward Saltpans (near the Quiet Isle). Arya leaves the Hound to die of his wound. 8) Arya takes a ship to Braavos. So, I think the exercise - that I may or may not get to - is to look at these events and apply them to Lyanna. If Lyanna was pregnant during this time, I don't think it was with Robert's child - it would either be someone's from the KWB or her captor. The question is, who is that captor? I know you guys think Sandor = Arthur Dayne, and that may be the case. Strangely, the Hound has quite a bit in common with Rhaegar too. The biggest question for me is: which of the events for Arya are actually inverted?
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 22:25:20 GMT
Here's an interesting side note: The WoIaF claims that Ned killed Arthur Dayne in single combat and we know that's not true.
Now that's a deliberate mistake by the authors. LOL So much for anything supporting RLJ>
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 22:26:41 GMT
Looks like it was disbanded well before the ToHH When Cersei was brought to Kings Landing at the age of 12, Jaime was Lord Crakehall's squire from age 12-16. He earned his spurs right before becoming Kingsguard. Cersei wanted Jaime to be Kingsguard so that he would be with her in Kings Landing. So, the Kingswood Brotherhood was disbanded shortly before the Tourney at Harrenhall.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 3, 2016 22:31:15 GMT
Was the brotherhood disbanded after the tourney; was it near the end of the year? It was disbanded before. Gerold Hightower took a wound to the hand when Elia's caravan was attacked in the Kingswood. Aerys dispatched Arthur Dayne to take care of the KWB for once and all; Jaime tagged along and was knighted by Dayne for his efforts. About a month later, Jaime met Cersei at the Rock, where the KG plot was launched. Jaime was inducted in the KG some time after that at the ToHH. Gerold Hightower was also at the tourney but did not particpate in any events due to his hand wound. All in all I'd say that the KWB events took place about 3-4 months before the tourney at Harrenhal.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 22:48:00 GMT
OR, Lyanna riding with a bastard of a future king in her belly? Namely Robert. Unless I mistake your meaning here by positing that a Blackfyre is the father? That is one of my crackpots, yes. It runs into the same "jon's age" issue as some of the other theories, but I keep it in reserve. Idea being that Lyanna-as-Wenda had an affair with TSK and had a child "of the blood" that would be of interest to a Targaryen perhaps looking to hatch some dragons or perform some other blood magic voodoo. I have zero proof of this, of course. Anyway, my take on this passage is that this is one of many parallels to be seen between Arya/Sandor and Lyanna/Somebody. I haven't worked it all out yet but there are lots of echoes in Arya's journey. 1) Arya is traveling with the Hound in something of a 'hostile companion' situation after escaping the BWB and being captured by Sandor. 2) The Hound originally was taking her to the Twins to ransom her to her family, but of course they arrived with the worst timing. 3) Arya, in Sandor's presence, semi-witnesses the deaths of her mother and brother. (There's a parallel here between Lord Frey's deception - massacre in guise of a wedding - and and Aerys' deception - massacre in the guise of trial by combat.) 4) Her captor "saves" her at the Twins, but then opts to take her East to the Eyrie for his personal financial gain. (Note: this is when Arya toys with the idea of returning to the BWB. Ironically, this is also the chapter where she begins experiencing her wolf dreams every night in full technicolor.) 5) High Road is closed, can't get there. Plans change and they head to Riverrun. Oops, Riverrun under siege. Turn back. 6) They arrive at the Inn at the Crossroads, where they encounter two of the Mountain's men and a squire. They fight, Gregor's men are killed, Sandor takes a wound. 7) They travel toward Saltpans (near the Quiet Isle). Arya leaves the Hound to die of his wound. 8) Arya takes a ship to Braavos. So, I think the exercise - that I may or may not get to - is to look at these events and apply them to Lyanna. If Lyanna was pregnant during this time, I don't think it was with Robert's child - it would either be someone's from the KWB or her captor. The question is, who is that captor? I know you guys think Sandor = Arthur Dayne, and that may be the case. Strangely, the Hound has quite a bit in common with Rhaegar too. The biggest question for me is: which of the events for Arya are actually inverted? The Red Wedding that Arya didn't quite make it inside to see would be Lyanna's exclusion from Brandon's wedding. The carnage from the murders symbolized the death and destruction of the rebellion. I still suspect Sandor's parallel inversion is Arthur. That doesn't mean she was accompanied by Arthur yet. Arthur would be with his sister Ashara helping her escape Kings Landing...a parallel inversion to Sansa, because while Sansa didn't go with Sandor, Ashara did, with Arthur that is. When Arthur and Ashara cross paths with Lyanna she had been taken hostage by the fake "Kingswood Brotherhood". What if Lyanna wanted to go to the wedding and was traveling with Maester Walys? When they got to the Inn at the Crossroads she's taken hostage, much like when Catelyn took Tyrion. While Catelyn took Tyrion east to the Eyrie, Lyanna would be taken west since I believe the fake Kingswood Brotherhood were Kevan, Jaime, Lord Sumner, Merrett Frey, and Robert Baratheon (Smiling Knight) who was in disguise. Walys is Simon and Lyanna is Wenda (again). Arthur and Ashara cross paths with this group and rescue Lyanna after a sword fight and Lyanna is injured. Arthur takes Lyanna to Saltpans where this time "Arya" is left to die of her wounds. Arthur continues with Ashara to the Eyrie to tell Ned where to find Lyanna. They all go back to the Quiet Isle where Lyanna is being taken care of. Could all of the above have taken 9 months to incubate a child? For Lyanna to have Robert's bastard in her belly he would have had to have raped her at the time of the abduction. Lyanna dies, Ned, Arthur, and Ashara make to take her bones to Winterfell. Arthur separates himself from this group preferring to go into hiding. He gives Ned his sword and asks him to tell people that he's dead. Ned and Ashara travel on to White Harbor where Ned calls his banners. Ashara travels on to Winterfell to return Lyanna's bones and serves as baby Jon's wet-nurse...don't ask me how that works! HAR! I'm in total crackpot territory, so go with it! If she's pregnant with Dany she could in theory be producing milk already. Ashara stays at Winterfell until another wet-nurse can be found. Then she's escorted to Bear Island where she delivers and briefly raises Dany.
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 23:31:46 GMT
I'm inclined to think that she confided in Walys about her pregnancy and that intel went to the Citadel. A plot was hatched to steal her from wherever she happened to be. I can imagine any number of people getting wind of it sending out their own search parties with their own agendas. So again I'm stuck with Lyanna at Starfall and the victim of a poisoning.
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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 17:03:16 GMT
A bit more on the crown of roses from wikipedia:
The Rosary (pronunciation: /ˈrəʊz(ə)ri/, Latin: rosarium, in the sense of "crown of roses" or "garland of roses"[1]), usually in the form of the Dominican Rosary,[2][3] is a form of prayer used especially in the Catholic Church named for the string of prayer beads used to count the component prayers.
Connections to the Tower or Joy/Tower of Sorrows:
The prayers that essentially compose the Rosary are arranged in sets of ten Hail Marys with each set preceded by one Lord's Prayer and followed by one Glory Be. During recitation of each set, known as a decade, thought is given to one of the Mysteries of the Rosary, which recall events in the lives of Jesus and Mary. Normally, five decades are recited in a session. Other prayers are sometimes added after each decade (in particular, the Fátima Prayer) and before (in particular, the Apostles' Creed), and after (in particular, the Hail, Holy Queen) the five decades taken as a whole. The rosary as a material object is an aid towards saying these prayers in the proper sequence.
A standard fifteen Mysteries of the Rosary, based on the long-standing custom, was established by Pope Pius V in the 16th century, grouping the mysteries in three sets: the Joyful Mysteries, the Sorrowful Mysteries, and the Glorious Mysteries. In 2002 Pope John Paul II said that it is fitting that a new set of five be added, called the Luminous Mysteries, bringing the total number of mysteries to twenty. - wikipedia
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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 17:09:58 GMT
A bit more on the crown of roses from wikipedia:
The Rosary (pronunciation: /ˈrəʊz(ə)ri/, Latin: rosarium, in the sense of "crown of roses" or "garland of roses"[1]), usually in the form of the Dominican Rosary,[2][3] is a form of prayer used especially in the Catholic Church named for the string of prayer beads used to count the component prayers.
Connections to the Tower or Joy/Tower of Sorrows:
The prayers that essentially compose the Rosary are arranged in sets of ten Hail Marys with each set preceded by one Lord's Prayer and followed by one Glory Be. During recitation of each set, known as a decade, thought is given to one of the Mysteries of the Rosary, which recall events in the lives of Jesus and Mary. Normally, five decades are recited in a session. Other prayers are sometimes added after each decade (in particular, the Fátima Prayer) and before (in particular, the Apostles' Creed), and after (in particular, the Hail, Holy Queen) the five decades taken as a whole. The rosary as a material object is an aid towards saying these prayers in the proper sequence.
A standard fifteen Mysteries of the Rosary, based on the long-standing custom, was established by Pope Pius V in the 16th century, grouping the mysteries in three sets: the Joyful Mysteries, the Sorrowful Mysteries, and the Glorious Mysteries. In 2002 Pope John Paul II said that it is fitting that a new set of five be added, called the Luminous Mysteries, bringing the total number of mysteries to twenty. - wikipedia
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 17:33:20 GMT
Why should Ned be filled with shame? It seems an odd feeling if he's hiding Jon's parentage. Regret, yes, but shame?
When Cersei was made to walk naked from the Sept to the Red Keep while Septa Unella rings a bell and calls after her "shame, shame" mainly for her confession of incest with Lancel, I can't help but make a connection.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 4, 2016 17:55:07 GMT
When Cersei was made to walk naked from the Sept to the Red Keep while Septa Unella rings a bell and calls after her "shame, shame" mainly for her confession of incest with Lancel, I can't help but make a connection. oooooooh, NICE! Good catch! Yes, the "shame" thing has always bugged me. There's no reason for Ned to feel shame about Jon as his sister's bastard unless 1) he fathered him or 2) Lyanna was less than upstanding (going back to that convo we had about the brothel connection).
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Dec 4, 2016 18:03:39 GMT
I could see Ned feeling shame if he made the choice to actively conceal it from Robert.Especially after Robert's death .Essentially,he was a baby thief that robbed them of the oppurtunity to know each other.Now with Robert's death that would never happen.He should feel ashamed.
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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 18:50:36 GMT
I go back to his conversation with Cersei; his inner thoughts where he doesn't include Jon as one of his children; in front of the heart tree; so no lies spoken or otherwise. Then he wonders what Catelyn would do if she was faced with the same choice as Cersei concerning Jon. Which is an odd statement in itself.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 19:13:42 GMT
I understand what you are seeing in that passage, but to me there's enough wiggle room to allow Ned to differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate.
Why would it be "more so" with regards to Catelyn than Cersei? Yes Jon is a child Catelyn knows versus Bran is not a child Cersei knows. With this comparison Catelyn should be more hesitant to harm a child she knows, right? When Ned first came upon Jon, wasn't he a child Ned didn't know? Whether Jon is or isn't his child, Ned chose to care for him rather than let him die.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 4, 2016 19:33:27 GMT
Then he wonders what Catelyn would do if she was faced with the same choice as Cersei concerning Jon. With this comparison Catelyn should be more hesitant to harm a child she knows, right? When Ned first came upon Jon, wasn't he a child Ned didn't know? Whether Jon is or isn't his child, Ned chose to care for him rather than let him die. What just jumped out for me here is that Ned is wondering what a MOTHER would do, what choice a MOTHER would make, if it came down to the choice of sacrificing a random/unknown child to save her own. He seriously doesn't know the answer to this question. Which means that if there was a baby swap involving Elia, Lyanna, or Ashara - in whatever combo platter you want to choose - then Ned either wasn't complicit in it, or he did it without telling the mother(s). If he isn't sure what a parent, particularly a mother, would do in that situation, then he was never personally faced with it or does not have passive experience with it.
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