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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 15:13:19 GMT
Lots of interesting stuff in here! I could spend hours going through it. The problem I always have explaining the "time travel" dilemma that people so readily reject gets a better explanation as the futureshadowing trope. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForeshadowingTwo specific variants are Futureshadowing, where the shadowing comes after the actual event chronologically but is still seen before it, and Foreseeing My Death, where a character has foreseen, prophesied or predicted his/her own demise. The case in point: where Bran dreams of seeing and talking to Jon before he's crossed the wall; and Jon dreams Bran as the sapling tree before Bran actually becomes WierBran. A good explanation for a non-linear character like Bran and I suspect Jon; who doesn't experience time flowing in one direction. Most people live within a time stream, where time flows in one direction and effects follow causes. However, there are some characters in fiction that are slightly removed from the time stream and are able to see the past, present, and future all at the same time. These characters tend to exude a mysterious, all-knowing air about them, as they generally know who you are, why you are talking to them, and what will happen if you do what you are planning. They aren't necessarily The Omniscient as you might be able to create your own destiny, but they may often act much like him. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonLinearCharacterI think Jon as Bran's 3EC is another version of futureshadowing that isn't yet recongized for what it is. However, for this to occur; I think both characters have to be contemporary with each other in the normal flow of time. In other words they must also share the 'present' time frame.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 15:15:57 GMT
Oh my. This could take days to read everything!
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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 15:23:41 GMT
Oh my. This could take days to read everything! There's way too much. I'm just looking at major characters and examples that fit a trope. Another one is Lost Lenore fits with both Lyanna and Ashara Dayne/Septa Lemore and Shrine to the Fallen.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 15:38:36 GMT
Oh my. This could take days to read everything! There's way too much. I'm just looking at major characters and examples that fit a trope. Another one is Lost Lenore fits with both Lyanna and Ashara Dayne/Septa Lemore and Shrine to the Fallen.
Is Lemore a derivative of lemon? I had tried to demonstrate a connection between Arthur and Lem Lemonwood so the name may be a feminine alias for Ashara.
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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 19:05:08 GMT
Lost Lenore is
A few more tropes that fit; Brandon the Beserker, Lyanna the Disposble Woman/Lost Lenore; Robert, It's Personal with the Dragon and Tywin The Dragon in Chief.
Tropes
Berserker Trope – It’s Personal
"Now Halloween is over. No more tricks. No more bombs. No more webbing. No more masks! You were right earlier. This has never been about Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. It has always been about Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. Tonight we will settle this face-to-face. As men!" — Peter Parker, Spider-Man Protagonists and antagonists are always fighting each other. It's generally accepted that there could be a few deaths, injuries, psychological trauma, and physical destruction over the course of their struggles in a story. However, sometimes motives can run deeper than simply the other person having opposing goals, and "struggles" can hit far closer to home and heart than is comfortable. Family members (or even entire races, countries, and cultures) may have been decimated, either as part of a character's backstory or during the story itself. Homes may have been burned down, and lifelong dreams may have been crushed. However you put it, though, somebody's embarrassed, saddened, angry, or let down, and they believe somebody (most times they know who they want to exact retribution from, by the way) has to pay for it. In short, this is where a character (or characters) has a very close, emotional investment in the story's conflict. The Stuffed into the Fridge and Friendly Target tropes are invariably a setup for this. Usually eventually leads to Not So Different. For a more specific form of this, see You Killed My Father. Often enough, This Means War!. If this is the impetus for the hero going on the journey to begin with, it's because The Call Knows Where You Live. When done to their home or base, the hero will usually take a moment to Watch Troy Burn. If the one for whom It's Personal finally gets to stare down the one who made it personal, expect an And This Is For... beatdown. The Disposable Woman is a character who exists only to make It's Personal happen. When it gets personal, characters insist they must work alone. One common variant is to order/trick allies aside to set up a one-on-one duel without interference. This can be risky, but the avenger wouldn't risk anyone else getting hurt—or someone stealing his precious right to do that particular kill himself! If a character has this as his primary motivation rather than as part of another quest, then he's Not in This for Your Revolution. Has nothing to do with "It" Is Dehumanizing It's Personal with the Dragon is a specific subtrope. Contrast when it's Nothing Personal, or at least the character(s) claim it's not. The invocation of this trope in Real Life on the internet is almost the moment when any given Flame War or bout of Ship-to-Ship Combat becomes Serious Business, leading to behaviors such as cyberbullying and real-life harassment, because belief/feeling that an issue is a personal affront to someone or their "in-group" is often "justification" for engaging in such behavior.
Disposable Woman:
"Needless violence against a woman character who is only significant as an object of a male character's desire? Hot damn, I'm a real comic writer now!" — Brian Clevinger, on this comic A female character, typically the wife, sweetheart or occasionally the mother or daughter of the protagonist, who is present in the story just so that she can be either kidnapped by the bad guys, thus becoming a Distressed Damsel, or find herself Stuffed into the Fridge, giving the protagonist a pretext for Revenge. In a series, she can be frighteningly easily forgotten or replaced once her value as a plot device has expired, if she has been previously developed at all. If instead of being conveniently forgotten one or more characters continues to mourn her or think about her, if she appears in ongoing flashbacks or dream sequences, she is not a Disposable Woman, she is a Lost Lenore (see below). This trope is closely related to The Lost Lenore. The key difference is that a Lost Lenore continues to have a recognised impact on the characters and story after her demise rather than conveniently vanishing from the minds of characters, audience and creators after having served her function as catalyst. Compare I Let Gwen Stacy Die, Doomed Hometown, Men Are the Expendable Gender, and Forgotten Fallen Friend. Contrast Disposable Sex Worker and Disposable Vagrant, where what makes them disposable is the expectation that no-one will miss them. When it happens to male characters, it's often Retirony (the hero cop losing his partner, etc.). Literal Gender Flips do exist (i.e. a man who is killed off to start a woman's search for Revenge) but are seldom seen. Tragic death of other family members may need another trope. Even if they somehow survive one movie, there's still Sudden Sequel Death Syndrome. If this happens often enough with love interests, it can become a Cartwright Curse. Not to be confused with Disposable Love Interest, a character who is there for a Token Romance and gets written out with little explanation so a fresh one can happen in the sequel. Related to Temporary Love Interest, where a character has a serious relationship with a short-lived character who is then inevitably written out to preserve the status quo.
Lost Lenore:
"Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December, And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor Eagerly I wished the morrow, vainly I had sought to borrow From my books surcease of sorrow—sorrow for the lost Lenore For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels named Lenore Nameless here for evermore." — The Raven, Edgar Allan Poe AKA The Dead Love Interest—not parent, not sibling, not offspring, love interest. One of The Oldest Ones in the Book, named for the famous deceased in Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven". In short the three defining criteria are • a love interest of a prominent character • is dead (or occasionally just genuinely believed to be dead) before the story begins or dies relatively early in the story • their death has significant ongoing impact, consequences and relevance for the remainder of the story In determining whether a character who dies during a story can be classified as a Lost Lenore, the third criterion above is the most important. ''In order to fit this trope, the character must have just as much, if not more, importance to the narrative dead than they do alive. For example, Anna in Van Helsing is the hero's love interest and dies at the climax of the story, but she is not a Lost Lenore as all that happens after she dies is that Van Helsing is cured, lays her to rest, sees her happy with her family in the afterlife and roll credits. She does more for the story alive than she does dead. Characters who lose Lenore can go on to have other love interests, particularly if she is a Posthumous Character or the story is part of an ongoing series. However, in order to qualify for this trope it must be clear that they grieved strongly for her, and that overcoming their grief and learning to love again is a significant part of character/plot development. Sometimes subsequent love interests never entirely replace Lenore. It can go all the way to a Love Triangle. The Lost Lenore's mode of death can vary but popular choices include: • The Incurable Cough of Death or other related terminal illnesses—see Mary in Silent Hill 2, Jennifer in Love Story, Cathy Earnshaw in Wuthering Heights. • Death by Childbirth—see Chani in Dune Messiah, Lilias in The Secret Garden. • Stuffed into the Fridge—see Murron in Braveheart, the dead wife in Memento • Heroic Sacrifice—Farah in Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (along one time stream anyway), Marion in the 2006 Robin Hood TV series, Lily Potter in the Harry Potter series. Lenores can also become lost through suicide, Innocent Bystander Syndrome, tragic accident or Random Act of God. If she left children behind, the children often have considerable emotional baggage to deal with, including a father (or father-figure equivalent) whose grief can render him overprotective, neglectful, abusive, or absent. The children may feel, or even be told explicitly, that they are either too much like the Lost Lenore, or else not enough like her. Angst ensues. If the Lost Lenore was murdered and Stuffed into the Fridge, a Roaring Rampage of Revenge usually ensues. Which leads to a crucial identifying point: many Gwen Stacys are also Lost Lenores, but not every Lost Lenore is also a Gwen Stacy, as someone explicitly blaming themself for the Gwen Stacy's death is an identifying criterion for this trope, whereas this is not always the case for a Lost Lenore. After her death, whether it occurs before the story begins or during its course the Lost Lenore is present in the the thoughts, dialogue and actions of living characters. Her memory may motivate the living characters to follow the example she set in life, or she can be a dynamic presence within a story through the use of Flashback and/or direct interaction with living characters in the form of a Spirit Advisor. Conversely, forces of evil may evoke the memory of the Lost Lenore, or even masquerade as a manifestation of her, in order to manipulate living characters. Sometimes living characters encounter another living character who for whatever reason strongly reminds them of the Lost Lenore. This new character could be a relative, reincarnation, or even just an uncanny doppelganger. In this instance a romantic relationship may develop, but this is always based primarily on the character's resemblance to the Lost Lenore and, yes, Angst can ensue. In some cases, the character may name a weapon or belonging after the Lost Lenore just to remember her and even develop a bond with them. Occasionally, due usually to a dramatic twist Lenore turns out not to be dead after all, or dead for reasons by means other than previously believed. The Lost Lenore can sometimes be brought back to life through an act of Time Travel or by magic but her death must be treated as a real event within the story. However, even if the audience knows or characters subsequently discover a twist in the tale, she must still satisfy the major criteria of having been loved and her perceived loss being of ongoing significance in order to qualify for this trope. Not to be confused with the comic book character Lenore the Cute Little Dead Girl who tends to cause death to other people rather than experience it herself. Related tropes include: Cynicism Catalyst, Death by Origin Story, I Let Gwen Stacy Die, Death by Childbirth, Stuffed into the Fridge, Crusading Widower, Too Good for This Sinful Earth, The Mourning After. Contrast with: Disposable Woman, Forgotten Fallen Friend, Oh, and X Dies. The One That Got Away isn't dead, but still a lost love. As this trope deals in part with characters who die during the course of a story, Here Be Spoilers. Note that this trope is not about misplacing a bottle of the fabric softener "Lenor" ("Downy" in the USA).
It’s Personal with the Dragon
In many stories the Big Bad and The Hero have a very direct and immediate relationship. The big bad is personally responsible for all the hero's woes, burned down his hometown, killed his father, and even kicked the hero's puppy! In those sorts of stories there's a very clear conflict between the two and often all of the bad guy's minions are just so many obstacles the hero has to overcome. Sometimes that dynamic gets changed up, and the hero's Arch-Enemy and most heated rivalry is not with the Big Bad himself, but rather his top enforcer. This is especially likely in stories where the Big Bad is either a Non-Action Big Bad or spends all his time being Orcus on His Throne, and thus it's his enforcers who spend all the time out terrorizing The Chosen One and their loved ones. Another scenario where this is particularly likely is if the Big Bad is some abstract force of evil or an Eldritch Abomination, but has a more human Mouth of Sauron or chief disciple who is carrying out its wishes and interacting with the heroes. Tends to overlap with Dragon-in-Chief, and may lead to a Dragon Their Feet situation, where the hero and the dragon only settle their score after the Big Bad has already been killed or defeated. Naturally, a subtrope of both It's Personal and The Dragon. Compare with The Heavy where a villain other than the Big Bad has the biggest villain role.
The Dragon in Chief:
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king. I'll make sure you understand that when I've won your war for you." — Tywin Lannister, Game of Thrones, "Mhysa" The Dragon-in-Chief is when The Dragon serves as the Big Bad of the story in spirit, even if not technically the one in charge. They're nominally subordinate to the "real" Big Bad, but so much smarter, stronger, more skillful, just as evil if not more so (and almost always scarier) that it's clear who's really the bigger menace. This character tends to have almost no respect for the Big Bad due to their comparative lack of vision, courage or common sense. The Big Bad, for his part, either seriously or fatally overestimates The Dragon's loyalty, or is just too afraid of him to be able to do much. In a nutshell, the Dragon-in-Chief is the main villainous driving force behind the plot, even if he or she did not initiate it, to the point that the Big Bad is pushed aside or even endangered by them, and rendered less important by comparison. The defining feature of a Dragon-in-Chief is that the Big Bad's Evil Plan completely falls apart without them; essentially, the main story ends with the Dragon's defeat. The Hero turns out to be way too much for the Big Bad to handle, and The Dragon is really the only significant threat in his arsenal. At times, he and The Hero come from the same place, the same (usually violent) world and not the kind of environment in which the Big Bad normally operates. The Dragon and The Hero may have heard of each other by reputation, brewing a rivalry between the two. Alternatively, The Hero might have been after The Dragon to begin with, such as for revenge for a past misdeed. In either case while the Big Bad might stake all his fortune and dreams in the outcome of the fight, The Dragon and The Hero see the Big Bad as nothing more than an annoyance who should stay out of the way. Often the Big Bad's only hope of survival is that these two destroy each other. Sometimes, the only way for a Big Bad to still be the main villain, is for The Dragon to have a Heel–Face Turn. Because of their disrespect, there are few straight Dragons amongst Dragons-in-Chief: There are those who barely restrain themselves from taking over thanks to their ego and those who are fine with letting the supposed Big Bad be the nominal superior because it is safer and leaves them with more freedom of movement and string-pulling. They are either a Dragon with an Agenda, a more dangerous Starscream, or just a more inevitable Dragon Ascendant (and don't be surprised if they are Dragon Their Feet). The Dragon With an Agenda type will probably be using the Big Bad for his own ends, working as a mercenary to fund his own projects that usually turn out to be much more threatening (or interesting) than the Big Bad's goal. If one of the other kinds, then they will probably be complaining about how the Big Bad runs things — typically, they think the Big Bad either lacks ambition, or is just an idiot. These ones are often junior partners in the Big Bad's business: After years of hard (but fun) living as a dangerous felon, he has found himself steady employment with the Big Bad and hopes to take over the business some day or retire on the fortune made from his latest Master Plan. This is when he starts to complain about his unambitious or just plain incompetent way of running things, though the Big Bad might retort that his way is from experience and The Dragon's ways will ultimately lead to ruin. Occasionally, their warnings turn out to be right. The most important thing is that the Big Bad is just not a significant factor if The Dragon is gone. This Big Bad must be much more manageable and less dangerous than their underling, or less likely to make a splash. The Dragon-in-Chief is either the main villain or the star of the show in his own right, and the actual Big Bad ends up relegated to supporting villain status. The Dragon can became the real Big Bad, while the theoretical Big Bad, would be moved to the position of the Evil Genius, or for extra irony, be Demoted to Dragon. The Man in Front of the Man is a related, but different trope where the position of the The Dragon as the actual Big Bad is kept hidden until The Reveal, thus The Dragon is less likely to act like a true Dragon-in-Chief in order to keep the jig up from the audience as well as the in-universe characters, including even his own boss, who might not be aware that he is being manipulated. When a character fills this role because the Big Bad is merely absent from the main story (or simply not as important to the main character), then they are The Heavy, possibly to a Greater Scope Villain (if they're operating entirely or almost entirely on their own). See also Hyper-Competent Sidekick, Non-Action Big Bad, Supporting Protagonist and especially the Big Bad Wannabe, whom Dragons-in-Chief (usually) work for. Compare/Contrast Deceptive Disciple. May result in a scenario where It's Personal with the Dragon.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 4, 2016 19:13:08 GMT
I'm going to have to spend some time on these! Currently laughing at "Adipose Rex"
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 19:25:04 GMT
I'm going to have to spend some time on these! Currently laughing at "Adipose Rex" Why? Because Robert is both Fat Bastard and Big Fun? 😝
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