Getting Biblical: Or, GRRM's Catholic is Showing
Jan 4, 2017 5:42:10 GMT
Weasel Pie and min like this
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jan 4, 2017 5:42:10 GMT
Not really mythology in the purest sense of the word, but close enough for all practical purposes, I'd say.
Caveat: I have grown particularly non-religious in my adulthood and have forgotten just about everything I ever knew about the Bible. However, we've already realized that GRRM has allowed some of his Catholic upbringing to slip into his storytelling - and I don't think I'd be too off the mark to assume that George, like a lot of kids dragged to twice-weekly service by their parents, paid most attention to the parts of the scripture that were violent, creepy, and weird. So, like 80% of the Old Testament and maybe 30% of the New plus Revelations, amirite. We already see a lot of the Mary/Madonna and Resurrected Christ imagery in the story, and I'm sure there's more.
I'll start with my latest finding:
Wooooowwwwwww. So playing off of the 3 "temperings" of AA's sword and the 3rd attempt being a natural cataclysm that was anthropomorphized (as ancient legends tend to be), I did a search on "lion as metaphor" to see if it correlated to any known geologic event that I could work into my Ring of Fire thread on volcanoes. Didn't really find anything on that, but hoo boy....look what I did find. All kinds of flame and hellfire, just not the kind I was after.
Let's visit the prophet Daniel, OT Chapter 7. The text varies between versions, of course, and you can see the different ones and the different interpretations on numerous websites, but I'm going to copy the straightforward version from a Catholic study site.
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions that passed through his head as he lay in bed. He wrote the dream down, and this is how the narrative began:
2 Daniel said, 'I have been seeing visions in the night. I saw that the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea;
3 four great beasts emerged from the sea, each different from the others.
4 The first was like a lion with eagle's wings and, as I looked, its wings were torn off, and it was lifted off the ground and set standing on its feet like a human; and it was given a human heart.
5 And there before me was a second beast, like a bear, rearing up on one side, with three ribs in its mouth, between its teeth. "Up!" came the command. "Eat quantities of flesh!"
6 After this I looked; and there before me was another beast, like a leopard, and with four bird's wings on its flanks; it had four heads and was granted authority.
7 Next, in the visions of the night, I saw another vision: there before me was a fourth beast, fearful, terrifying, very strong; it had great iron teeth, and it ate its victims, crushed them, and trampled their remains underfoot. It was different from the previous beasts and had ten horns.
8 'While I was looking at these horns, I saw another horn sprouting among them, a little one; three of the original horns were pulled out by the roots to make way for it; and in this horn I saw eyes like human eyes, and a mouth full of boasting.
9 While I was watching, thrones were set in place and one most venerable took his seat. His robe was white as snow, the hair of his head as pure as wool. His throne was a blaze of flames, its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A stream of fire poured out, issuing from his presence. A thousand thousand waited on him, ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was in session and the books lay open.
11 'I went on watching: then, because of the noise made by the boastings of the horn, as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames.
12 The other beasts were deprived of their empire, but received a lease of life for a season and a time.
13 I was gazing into the visions of the night, when I saw, coming on the clouds of heaven, as it were a son of man. He came to the One most venerable and was led into his presence.
14 On him was conferred rule, honour and kingship, and all peoples, nations and languages became his servants. His rule is an everlasting rule which will never pass away, and his kingship will never come to an end.
15 'I, Daniel, was deeply disturbed and the visions that passed through my head alarmed me.
16 So I approached one of those who were standing by and asked him about all this. And in reply he revealed to me what these things meant.
17 "These four great beasts are four kings who will rise up from the earth.
18 Those who receive royal power are the holy ones of the Most High, and kingship will be theirs for ever, for ever and ever."
19 Then I asked about the fourth beast, different from all the rest, very terrifying, with iron teeth and bronze claws; it ate its victims, crushed them, and trampled their remains underfoot;
20 and about the ten horns on its head -- and why the other horn sprouted and the three original horns fell, and why this horn had eyes and a mouth full of boasting, and why it looked more impressive than its fellows.
21 This was the horn I had watched making war on the holy ones and proving the stronger,
22 until the coming of the One most venerable who gave judgement in favour of the holy ones of the Most High, when the time came for the holy ones to assume kingship.
23 This is what he said: "The fourth beast is to be a fourth kingdom on earth, different from all other kingdoms. It will devour the whole world, trample it underfoot and crush it.
24 As for the ten horns: from this kingdom will rise ten kings, and another after them; this one will be different from the previous ones and will bring down three kings;
25 he will insult the Most High, and torment the holy ones of the Most High. He will plan to alter the seasons and the Law, and the Saints will be handed over to him for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court will sit, and he will be stripped of his royal authority which will be finally destroyed and reduced to nothing.
27 And kingship and rule and the splendours of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose royal power is an eternal power, whom every empire will serve and obey."
28 'Here the narrative ends. 'I, Daniel, was greatly disturbed in mind, and I grew pale; but I kept these things to myself.'
This is Daniel's prophecy of the End of Days. Four kingdoms - the "beasts" - arise; the last of which will make war on the "holy ones", but eventually they all stand in judgment before the Ancient of Days (God). The "beasts" fall - including the last, the terrible horned beast with the iron teeth - and these empires are all at last replaced by the Kingdom of God. During this time, a "son of man", a champion of the Holy Ones, approaches the Ancient of Days and with the fall of the last and greatest beast is giving everlasting worldwide kingship and eternal dominion over all people in all lands.
Now, what's really interesting here aside from the imagery of the great "beasts" that represent kingdoms - each with its own type of insatiable appetite & greed for power - and particularly the Big Nasty at the end, what sure sounds like a big ol' dragon, is the interpretation of the Holy Ones: "The "holy ones" seems to refer to the persecuted Jews under Antiochus; the "sacred seasons and the law" are the Jewish religious customs disrupted by him; the "time, two times and a half" is approximately the time of the persecution, from 167 to 164 BC, as well as being half the "perfect number" seven."
So, the Jews being the original Chosen People that have become oppressed by a series of Usurpers, and believe that a restoration of their beliefs and worship will usher in the final age, the second coming, and the fifth kingdom for all mankind that would be heaven. Without getting into the weeds of scriptural discussion of what kingdoms are being portrayed and all that, let's just say that the beasts represent all of the empires that have risen/will rise over time that oppress the Chosen People and lead them further away from their divine sovereignty over humanity.
If I were to apply this to Westeros, I think I'd be cool with saying this correlates to the development of Westeros as a society from the Dawn Age - don't know if we have exactly four "beasts" of note, but we can certainly count the First Men, the Andals, and the great horned iron-toothed beast of Targaryen rule on the list of those who crashed the party of the Old Races. These guys rose from the sea - "Symbolically, the sea may represent the mass of humanity, or the nations of the world... It is the ocean; and the storm on it represents the ‘tumults of the people,’ commotions among the nations of the world. ‘Since the beasts represent the forms of the world-power, the sea must represent that out of which they arise, the whole heathen world.' " They came from all over - "the number four has the symbolic meaning of representing people from all four corners of the earth, that is, all peoples and all regions." And, with the advent of each "beast" or empire, the old races like the CotF were pushed further and further away until now their numbers are diminished and will soon disappear....
...That is, unless they can find a way to intervene, send a representative to plead their case before a higher power to bring judgment - a higher power that can cast down even the last great beast, the symbol of the greatest worst kingdom of all: the dragon. "As I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames." A higher power with robes and hair as white as snow.
Additional Pig Note: that last dragon-beast sprouting all the horns? Well, it has 10 horns originally, and apparently an 11th shows up that displaces three before it, and this horn turns out to be the worst of all. "The "ten horns" that appear on the beast stand for the ten Seleucid kings between Seleucus I, the founder of the kingdom, and Antiochus Epiphanes. [These are the Greeks and in particular the Seleucids of Syria] The "little horn" is Antiochus himself. The "three horns" uprooted by the "little horn" reflect the fact that Antiochus was fourth in line to the throne, and became king after his brother and one of his brother's sons were murdered and the second son exiled to Rome. Antiochus was responsible only for the murder of one of his nephews, but the author of Daniel 7 holds him responsible for all. Anthiochus called himself Theos Epiphanes, "God Manifest", suiting the "arrogant" speech of the little horn."
Bit of conflation here, as we have the "unlikely" king who was 4th in line to the throne, but funny and coincidental (?) that the ELEVENTH king of Targaryen rule, the most obnoxious and arrogant little horn, was none other than Aegon IV the Unworthy. Aegon, the FOURTH of his name, the 11th horn that displaced THREE kings (Aegons) before him.
Really, just fascinating stuff. Daniel's prophecy was a real pivotal Old Testament game changer, not to mention full of the cool fire and brimstone stuff re: the antichrist, messiah, and apocalyptic stuff. It's all about (re)establishing sovereignty through divine means and intervention for a subjugated people. Lots of ASOIAF parallels here to explore, even a few commonalities with HOTU visions. Something to think about, anyway.
Caveat: I have grown particularly non-religious in my adulthood and have forgotten just about everything I ever knew about the Bible. However, we've already realized that GRRM has allowed some of his Catholic upbringing to slip into his storytelling - and I don't think I'd be too off the mark to assume that George, like a lot of kids dragged to twice-weekly service by their parents, paid most attention to the parts of the scripture that were violent, creepy, and weird. So, like 80% of the Old Testament and maybe 30% of the New plus Revelations, amirite. We already see a lot of the Mary/Madonna and Resurrected Christ imagery in the story, and I'm sure there's more.
I'll start with my latest finding:
Wooooowwwwwww. So playing off of the 3 "temperings" of AA's sword and the 3rd attempt being a natural cataclysm that was anthropomorphized (as ancient legends tend to be), I did a search on "lion as metaphor" to see if it correlated to any known geologic event that I could work into my Ring of Fire thread on volcanoes. Didn't really find anything on that, but hoo boy....look what I did find. All kinds of flame and hellfire, just not the kind I was after.
Let's visit the prophet Daniel, OT Chapter 7. The text varies between versions, of course, and you can see the different ones and the different interpretations on numerous websites, but I'm going to copy the straightforward version from a Catholic study site.
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions that passed through his head as he lay in bed. He wrote the dream down, and this is how the narrative began:
2 Daniel said, 'I have been seeing visions in the night. I saw that the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea;
3 four great beasts emerged from the sea, each different from the others.
4 The first was like a lion with eagle's wings and, as I looked, its wings were torn off, and it was lifted off the ground and set standing on its feet like a human; and it was given a human heart.
5 And there before me was a second beast, like a bear, rearing up on one side, with three ribs in its mouth, between its teeth. "Up!" came the command. "Eat quantities of flesh!"
6 After this I looked; and there before me was another beast, like a leopard, and with four bird's wings on its flanks; it had four heads and was granted authority.
7 Next, in the visions of the night, I saw another vision: there before me was a fourth beast, fearful, terrifying, very strong; it had great iron teeth, and it ate its victims, crushed them, and trampled their remains underfoot. It was different from the previous beasts and had ten horns.
8 'While I was looking at these horns, I saw another horn sprouting among them, a little one; three of the original horns were pulled out by the roots to make way for it; and in this horn I saw eyes like human eyes, and a mouth full of boasting.
9 While I was watching, thrones were set in place and one most venerable took his seat. His robe was white as snow, the hair of his head as pure as wool. His throne was a blaze of flames, its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A stream of fire poured out, issuing from his presence. A thousand thousand waited on him, ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was in session and the books lay open.
11 'I went on watching: then, because of the noise made by the boastings of the horn, as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames.
12 The other beasts were deprived of their empire, but received a lease of life for a season and a time.
13 I was gazing into the visions of the night, when I saw, coming on the clouds of heaven, as it were a son of man. He came to the One most venerable and was led into his presence.
14 On him was conferred rule, honour and kingship, and all peoples, nations and languages became his servants. His rule is an everlasting rule which will never pass away, and his kingship will never come to an end.
15 'I, Daniel, was deeply disturbed and the visions that passed through my head alarmed me.
16 So I approached one of those who were standing by and asked him about all this. And in reply he revealed to me what these things meant.
17 "These four great beasts are four kings who will rise up from the earth.
18 Those who receive royal power are the holy ones of the Most High, and kingship will be theirs for ever, for ever and ever."
19 Then I asked about the fourth beast, different from all the rest, very terrifying, with iron teeth and bronze claws; it ate its victims, crushed them, and trampled their remains underfoot;
20 and about the ten horns on its head -- and why the other horn sprouted and the three original horns fell, and why this horn had eyes and a mouth full of boasting, and why it looked more impressive than its fellows.
21 This was the horn I had watched making war on the holy ones and proving the stronger,
22 until the coming of the One most venerable who gave judgement in favour of the holy ones of the Most High, when the time came for the holy ones to assume kingship.
23 This is what he said: "The fourth beast is to be a fourth kingdom on earth, different from all other kingdoms. It will devour the whole world, trample it underfoot and crush it.
24 As for the ten horns: from this kingdom will rise ten kings, and another after them; this one will be different from the previous ones and will bring down three kings;
25 he will insult the Most High, and torment the holy ones of the Most High. He will plan to alter the seasons and the Law, and the Saints will be handed over to him for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court will sit, and he will be stripped of his royal authority which will be finally destroyed and reduced to nothing.
27 And kingship and rule and the splendours of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose royal power is an eternal power, whom every empire will serve and obey."
28 'Here the narrative ends. 'I, Daniel, was greatly disturbed in mind, and I grew pale; but I kept these things to myself.'
This is Daniel's prophecy of the End of Days. Four kingdoms - the "beasts" - arise; the last of which will make war on the "holy ones", but eventually they all stand in judgment before the Ancient of Days (God). The "beasts" fall - including the last, the terrible horned beast with the iron teeth - and these empires are all at last replaced by the Kingdom of God. During this time, a "son of man", a champion of the Holy Ones, approaches the Ancient of Days and with the fall of the last and greatest beast is giving everlasting worldwide kingship and eternal dominion over all people in all lands.
Now, what's really interesting here aside from the imagery of the great "beasts" that represent kingdoms - each with its own type of insatiable appetite & greed for power - and particularly the Big Nasty at the end, what sure sounds like a big ol' dragon, is the interpretation of the Holy Ones: "The "holy ones" seems to refer to the persecuted Jews under Antiochus; the "sacred seasons and the law" are the Jewish religious customs disrupted by him; the "time, two times and a half" is approximately the time of the persecution, from 167 to 164 BC, as well as being half the "perfect number" seven."
So, the Jews being the original Chosen People that have become oppressed by a series of Usurpers, and believe that a restoration of their beliefs and worship will usher in the final age, the second coming, and the fifth kingdom for all mankind that would be heaven. Without getting into the weeds of scriptural discussion of what kingdoms are being portrayed and all that, let's just say that the beasts represent all of the empires that have risen/will rise over time that oppress the Chosen People and lead them further away from their divine sovereignty over humanity.
If I were to apply this to Westeros, I think I'd be cool with saying this correlates to the development of Westeros as a society from the Dawn Age - don't know if we have exactly four "beasts" of note, but we can certainly count the First Men, the Andals, and the great horned iron-toothed beast of Targaryen rule on the list of those who crashed the party of the Old Races. These guys rose from the sea - "Symbolically, the sea may represent the mass of humanity, or the nations of the world... It is the ocean; and the storm on it represents the ‘tumults of the people,’ commotions among the nations of the world. ‘Since the beasts represent the forms of the world-power, the sea must represent that out of which they arise, the whole heathen world.' " They came from all over - "the number four has the symbolic meaning of representing people from all four corners of the earth, that is, all peoples and all regions." And, with the advent of each "beast" or empire, the old races like the CotF were pushed further and further away until now their numbers are diminished and will soon disappear....
...That is, unless they can find a way to intervene, send a representative to plead their case before a higher power to bring judgment - a higher power that can cast down even the last great beast, the symbol of the greatest worst kingdom of all: the dragon. "As I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames." A higher power with robes and hair as white as snow.
Additional Pig Note: that last dragon-beast sprouting all the horns? Well, it has 10 horns originally, and apparently an 11th shows up that displaces three before it, and this horn turns out to be the worst of all. "The "ten horns" that appear on the beast stand for the ten Seleucid kings between Seleucus I, the founder of the kingdom, and Antiochus Epiphanes. [These are the Greeks and in particular the Seleucids of Syria] The "little horn" is Antiochus himself. The "three horns" uprooted by the "little horn" reflect the fact that Antiochus was fourth in line to the throne, and became king after his brother and one of his brother's sons were murdered and the second son exiled to Rome. Antiochus was responsible only for the murder of one of his nephews, but the author of Daniel 7 holds him responsible for all. Anthiochus called himself Theos Epiphanes, "God Manifest", suiting the "arrogant" speech of the little horn."
Bit of conflation here, as we have the "unlikely" king who was 4th in line to the throne, but funny and coincidental (?) that the ELEVENTH king of Targaryen rule, the most obnoxious and arrogant little horn, was none other than Aegon IV the Unworthy. Aegon, the FOURTH of his name, the 11th horn that displaced THREE kings (Aegons) before him.
Really, just fascinating stuff. Daniel's prophecy was a real pivotal Old Testament game changer, not to mention full of the cool fire and brimstone stuff re: the antichrist, messiah, and apocalyptic stuff. It's all about (re)establishing sovereignty through divine means and intervention for a subjugated people. Lots of ASOIAF parallels here to explore, even a few commonalities with HOTU visions. Something to think about, anyway.
