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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 19:49:58 GMT
Do you suppose the Mund or Munda is referring to the King's Hand?
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 19:50:50 GMT
Another clue might be Tor EGG. Aegon was in the tower. I saw that too, but my mind went to Egg as in Aegon V.
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 22:10:26 GMT
Do you suppose the Mund or Munda is referring to the King's Hand? Maybe this does refer to Jon Connington sneaking Aegon out of Kings Landing?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 22:39:24 GMT
Do you suppose the Mund or Munda is referring to the King's Hand? Maybe this does refer to Jon Connington sneaking Aegon out of Kings Landing? There's definitely something there, I have no doubt - and I really like this angle!
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 19, 2017 22:47:38 GMT
"You bloody crows." Tormund's tone was gruff, yet strangely gentle. "That Longspear stole me daughter. Munda me little autumn apple. Took her right out o' my tent with all four o' her brothers about. Toregg slept through it, the great lout, and Torwynd... well, Torwynd the Tame, that says all that needs saying don't it?" Would you agree that Munda is referring to someone being kept under guard? The term of endearment, "me little autumn apple" makes me think of Snowfyre's horticulture essays about apples. I know Sansa was an apple and somehow Snowfyre had Jon as a "stone apple" because he made a connection to the "Bael apple". "...And Torwynd... it was the cold that claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him" Stream of consciousness - Torwynd the Tame became wighted. A tame wight? Was Lyanna in contact with a tame wight? Would Coldhands be considered one? Or was a "tame wight" her lover, and Lyanna was Coldhanded? Eyes as blue as death and all that. I've poked around with all of these ideas. Do you think Torwynd is Lyanna or Howland? Could it be a reference to his perhaps being a greenseer versus a wight? The cold that claimed him would be the old gods. Qhorin's helm had been worn by the short homely man called Longspear Ryk, but it fit poorly on his narrow head, so he'd given that to Ygritte as well. I wonder if there is a parallel to Qhorin at Harrenhal? It would need to be associated with the Starks since the Starks gave Howland his armor. Mund (from Tormund, torr-mund) hand palm (of the hand as a measure) trust security protection guardianship protector guardian the king’s peace fine for breach of the laws of protection or guardianship of the king’s peacemoney paid by bridegroom to bride’s father bridegroom’s gift to bride <~~~ Blue rose anyone? Whoever was being held at the tower of joy was being held as a way to keep the king's peace. We know Aerys held Elia to keep the Dornish under control, so who else might he want held? Even though I'm not an RLJ believer, this one kinda points to Rhaegar paying a father a price for a bride, or for Kingsguard to keep someone protected...someone that they want to marry. Jon had to bite his tongue. He didn't want to know about Del's girl or Bodger's mother, the place by the sea that Henk the Helm came from, how Grigg yearned to visit the green men on the Isle of Faces, or the time a moose had chased Toefinger up a tree. He didn't want to hear about the boil on Big Boil's arse, how much ale Stone Thumbs could drink, or how Quort's little brother had begged him not to go with Jarl. Quort could not have been older than fourteen, though he'd already stolen himself a wife and had a child on the way. "Might be he'll be born in some castle," the boy boasted. "Born in a castle like a lord!" He was very taken with the "castles" they'd seen, by which he meant watchtowers.I wonder if all of the people named have parallel counterparts? Henk the Helm = Lyanna, Grigg = Howland. The first thing that came for the moose chasing Toefinger was Brandon dueling Littlefinger. etc, etc... I don't know if we have direct parallels between any of the characters in the toj saga and the Torwynd saga, but GRRM almost seems to be having a private little joke at our expense.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 20, 2017 13:32:45 GMT
Ok, this stupid thing keeps percolating in my mind. Let's look at Tormynd as literally the tower of joy. When Tormund laments about Tormynd as not being much of a man truth be told, but he be my little boy and I loved him. Can't we interpret that as the tower really isn't much of a tower. After all two people took it apart with their own two hands?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 20, 2017 13:42:59 GMT
Do you suppose the Mund or Munda is referring to the King's Hand? Munda appears to be its own word as opposed to a feminine form of Mund. In a subset of an old German language it means to aim, but more interestingly in an old Scandinavian language, it means to lay an egg.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jan 20, 2017 14:08:39 GMT
Ok, this stupid thing keeps percolating in my mind. Let's look at Tormynd as literally the tower of joy. When Tormund laments about Tormynd as not being much of a man truth be told, but he be my little boy and I loved him. Can't we interpret that as the tower really isn't much of a tower. After all two people took it apart with their own two hands? That makes good sense... and someone was emotionally attached to it. Rhaegar was said to have called the structure [torwynd]. I've wondered if he did so in song.
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 20, 2017 14:37:46 GMT
Or Aerys didn't think Rhaegar much of a man?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 20, 2017 15:11:34 GMT
Ok, this stupid thing keeps percolating in my mind. Let's look at Tormynd as literally the tower of joy. When Tormund laments about Tormynd as not being much of a man truth be told, but he be my little boy and I loved him. Can't we interpret that as the tower really isn't much of a tower. After all two people took it apart with their own two hands? That makes good sense... and someone was emotionally attached to it. Rhaegar was said to have called the structure [torwynd]. I've wondered if he did so in song. Yea, and we know that the only other thing that Rhaegar was emotionally attached to (and no it wasn't Lyanna, or even Connington) was Summerhall. The last time the Targaryens made a concerted effort at dragon hatching. Let's then take Munda in its old Scandanavian meaning, to lay an egg, and the link becomes even stronger. Perhaps Munda was a dragon egg, or more likely in my mind, Munda was a child whose sacrifice was supposed to wake the Dragon. Perhaps munda means to lay an Aegon?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 20, 2017 15:23:12 GMT
Munda appears to be its own word as opposed to a feminine form of Mund. In a subset of an old German language it means to aim, but more interestingly in an old Scandinavian language, it means to lay an egg. ... and we're back to Aegon V. Perhaps Munda was a dragon egg, or more likely in my mind, Munda was a child whose sacrifice was supposed to wake the Dragon. Perhaps munda means to lay an Aegon? They were in Dorne, after all. I've always believed baby Aegon ended up in the South. Further, Summerhall is not that far from the ToJ as the crow (heh) flies. GLORIOUS stuff! This is the best topic I've read in months!
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 20, 2017 16:31:17 GMT
Munda is also the feminine for mundo in Latin. And mundo means to clean or cleanse. Which takes me back to this dream Dany had:
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 20, 2017 16:43:07 GMT
Some Pig theorized that there was a blood magic ritual at the tower of joy with the intention of trying to resurrect Rhaegar by sacrificing one of his children. I believe she thought Ashara the mother. So the egg being hatched into a dragon could possibly be Rhaegar.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 20, 2017 17:32:16 GMT
Some Pig theorized that there was a blood magic ritual at the tower of joy with the intention of trying to resurrect Rhaegar by sacrificing one of his children. I believe she thought Ashara the mother. So the egg being hatched into a dragon could possibly be Rhaegar. I definitely think child sacrifice was the principle reason behind the tower of joy. A lot of the images surrounding the tower relate back to other tales of child sacrifice, the strongest association is the tale of Theseus and the Minotaur, but perhaps more subtly referenced, is the Valley of Hinnom, formerly Gehenna, where children were allegedly sacrificed to the bull headed god, Moloch, by "passing them through fire".
As for the why, I've also considered whether Dany might by Rhaegar's reincarnate. But I'm leaning more towards a literal meaning of the Dragon has three heads. They were looking to transfer the consciousness's of the children into a dragon upon hatching.
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 20, 2017 18:21:36 GMT
Some Pig theorized that there was a blood magic ritual at the tower of joy with the intention of trying to resurrect Rhaegar by sacrificing one of his children. I believe she thought Ashara the mother. So the egg being hatched into a dragon could possibly be Rhaegar. I definitely think child sacrifice was the principle reason behind the tower of joy. A lot of the images surrounding the tower relate back to other tales of child sacrifice, the strongest association is the tale of Theseus and the Minotaur, but perhaps more subtly referenced, is the Valley of Hinnom, formerly Gehenna, where children were allegedly sacrificed to the bull headed god, Moloch, by "passing them through fire".
As for the why, I've also considered whether Dany might by Rhaegar's reincarnate. But I'm leaning more towards a literal meaning of the Dragon has three heads. They were looking to transfer the consciousness's of the children into a dragon upon hatching.
The phrase that someone is somebody "reborn" is thrown around frequently enough, it would be nice if someone actually was!
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