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Post by Melifeather on Aug 31, 2017 3:32:41 GMT
I think more than one familiar story are replays of different aspects of Lyanna's abduction. See if you can imagine the same scenario applied to Lyanna in the examples listed below:
The attack on Elia in the woods by the Kingswood Brotherhood. Ser Gerold Hightower is injured, but Elia remains unharmed. The Kingswood Brotherhood is hunted down and disassembled with most dead and one man sent to the Wall.
The baby swap between Gilly and her son, Monster, with Mance's son. Sam takes her to Horn Hill, and Maester Aemon dies on the journey. Mance's son is safe in the south while Gilly's baby remains at the Wall.
Arianne convinces Ser Arys Oakheart to sneak Myrcella out of Sunspear by dressing one of his men in his armor, and by painting red spots on her handmaiden, in order to crown her and win banners to her cause to be declared Lady of Dorne.
Myrcella is attacked by Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne. Myrcella survives but suffers a gash down her face and her ear cut off, while Dayne gets away.
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Post by essosiwatch on Sept 5, 2017 5:34:43 GMT
Quote: "I think more than one familiar story are replays of different aspects of Lyanna's abduction." Absolutely. And not only this. I just realized something. My theory: A L L stories in these books are replays of past events, with slight changes. Quote: "See if you can imagine the same scenario applied to..." ...different characters, with some remix.
This theory explains everything. It even explains why it takes so long to write the books. It's not easy to write a meaningful story on such conditions. It also explains why grrm recycles names. He has to make some hints so readers would be able to recognize the similarities. Familiar sounding names ring the bell sometimes. But he also has to be careful to not to make it too obvious. With this theory in mind, you can even find Tysha: Widow of the Waterfront, the Merchant House. Tysha might run her own inn somewhere in Lannisport docks. Or she might not. There is Fishermonger's something in King's Landing, too, iirc. Look for paralleling stories, familiar descriptions, similar qualities... Otter Gimpknee/Lame Lothar Frey. Volon Therys/Castamere. Sometimes they're inversions, so be careful. Fisherman's Daughter? Certainly a Red Flag. NOTHING is a red herring. You bet even the food descriptions have their meaning.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 30, 2017 22:32:03 GMT
Oh, one more gorgeous quote that I found that supports two "sisters", someone searching for them, and a smuggling operation over the sea.
AFFC, Brienne III. She is on the road, looking for Sansa and Arya to uphold her vow to Catelyn, and meets Nimble Dick in Maidenpool.
The man looked her over, his eyes wary. "A word? I know a lot o' words." He sat down on the stool across from her. "Tell me which m'lady wants t' hear, and Nimble Dick will say it." "I heard you fooled a fool." The ragged man sipped his wine, thinking. "Mighten be I did. Or not." He wore a faded, torn doublet from which some lord's badge had been ripped. "Who is it wants t' know?" "King Robert." She put a silver stag on the barrel between them. Robert's head was on one side, the stag on the other. "Does he now?" The man took the coin and spun it, smiling. "I like to see a king dance, hey-nonny hey-nonny hey-nonny-ho. Mighten be I saw this fool of yours." "Was there a girl with him?" "Two girls," he said at once. "Two girls?" Could the other one be Arya? "Well," the man said, "I never seen the little sweets, mind you, but he was wanting passage for three." "Passage where?" "T'other side o' the sea, as I recall." "Do you remember what he looked like?" "A fool." He snatched the spinning coin off the table as it began to slow, and made it vanish. "A frightened fool." "Frightened why?" He shrugged. "He never said, but old Nimble Dick knows the smell o' fear. He come here most every night, buying drinks for sailors, making japes, singing little songs. Only one night some men come in with that hunter on their teats, and your fool went white as milk and got quiet till they left." He edged his stool closer to hers. "That Tarly's got soldiers crawling over the docks, watching every ship that comes or goes. Man wants a deer, he goes t' the woods. He wants a ship, he goes t' the docks. Your fool didn't dare. So I offered him some help." "What sort of help?" "The sort that costs more than one silver stag." "Tell me, and you'll have another." "Let's see it," he said. She put another stag on the barrel. He spun it, smiled, scooped it up. "A man who can't go t' the ships need for the ships t' come t' him. I told him I knew a place where that might happen. A hidden place, like." Gooseprickles rose along Brienne's arms. "A smugglers' cove. You sent the fool to smugglers." "Him and them two girls." He chuckled. "Only thing, well, the place I sent them, been no ships there for a while. Thirty years, say." He scratched his nose. "What's this fool to you?" "Those two girls are my sisters." "Are they, now? Poor little things. Had a sister once meself. Skinny girl with knobby knees, but then she grew a pair o' teats and a knight's son got between her legs. Last I saw her she was off for King's Landing t' make a living on her back." "Where did you send them?" Another shrug. "As t' that, I can't recall." "Where?" Brienne slapped another silver stag down. He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. "Someplace no stag ever found . . . though a dragon might."
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zena
Black Iron
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Post by zena on Feb 27, 2020 18:05:28 GMT
Oh, one more gorgeous quote that I found that supports two "sisters", someone searching for them, and a smuggling operation over the sea. AFFC, Brienne III. She is on the road, looking for Sansa and Arya to uphold her vow to Catelyn, and meets Nimble Dick in Maidenpool. The man looked her over, his eyes wary. "A word? I know a lot o' words." He sat down on the stool across from her. "Tell me which m'lady wants t' hear, and Nimble Dick will say it." "I heard you fooled a fool." The ragged man sipped his wine, thinking. "Mighten be I did. Or not." He wore a faded, torn doublet from which some lord's badge had been ripped. "Who is it wants t' know?" "King Robert." She put a silver stag on the barrel between them. Robert's head was on one side, the stag on the other. "Does he now?" The man took the coin and spun it, smiling. "I like to see a king dance, hey-nonny hey-nonny hey-nonny-ho. Mighten be I saw this fool of yours." "Was there a girl with him?" "Two girls," he said at once."Two girls?" Could the other one be Arya? "Well," the man said, "I never seen the little sweets, mind you, but he was wanting passage for three.""Passage where?" "T'other side o' the sea, as I recall.""Do you remember what he looked like?" "A fool." He snatched the spinning coin off the table as it began to slow, and made it vanish. "A frightened fool." "Frightened why?" He shrugged. "He never said, but old Nimble Dick knows the smell o' fear. He come here most every night, buying drinks for sailors, making japes, singing little songs. Only one night some men come in with that hunter on their teats, and your fool went white as milk and got quiet till they left." He edged his stool closer to hers. "That Tarly's got soldiers crawling over the docks, watching every ship that comes or goes. Man wants a deer, he goes t' the woods. He wants a ship, he goes t' the docks. Your fool didn't dare. So I offered him some help.""What sort of help?" "The sort that costs more than one silver stag.""Tell me, and you'll have another." "Let's see it," he said. She put another stag on the barrel. He spun it, smiled, scooped it up. "A man who can't go t' the ships need for the ships t' come t' him. I told him I knew a place where that might happen. A hidden place, like."Gooseprickles rose along Brienne's arms. "A smugglers' cove. You sent the fool to smugglers.""Him and them two girls." He chuckled. " Only thing, well, the place I sent them, been no ships there for a while. Thirty years, say." He scratched his nose. "What's this fool to you?" "Those two girls are my sisters.""Are they, now? Poor little things. Had a sister once meself. Skinny girl with knobby knees, but then she grew a pair o' teats and a knight's son got between her legs. Last I saw her she was off for King's Landing t' make a living on her back." "Where did you send them?" Another shrug. "As t' that, I can't recall." "Where?" Brienne slapped another silver stag down. He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. "Someplace no stag ever found . . . though a dragon might."
Wow what a thread! As for the last post, is it possible this fool is Tyrion? And the two sisters are Rosamund and Myrcella? Rosamund the less pretty cousin with the beautiful kind hearted Princess? Are they a nod to Lyanna and Ashara? As I believe Ashara could be Shaena Targaryen.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 4, 2020 17:31:45 GMT
Oh, one more gorgeous quote that I found that supports two "sisters", someone searching for them, and a smuggling operation over the sea. AFFC, Brienne III. She is on the road, looking for Sansa and Arya to uphold her vow to Catelyn, and meets Nimble Dick in Maidenpool. The man looked her over, his eyes wary. "A word? I know a lot o' words." He sat down on the stool across from her. "Tell me which m'lady wants t' hear, and Nimble Dick will say it." "I heard you fooled a fool." The ragged man sipped his wine, thinking. "Mighten be I did. Or not." He wore a faded, torn doublet from which some lord's badge had been ripped. "Who is it wants t' know?" "King Robert." She put a silver stag on the barrel between them. Robert's head was on one side, the stag on the other. "Does he now?" The man took the coin and spun it, smiling. "I like to see a king dance, hey-nonny hey-nonny hey-nonny-ho. Mighten be I saw this fool of yours." "Was there a girl with him?" "Two girls," he said at once."Two girls?" Could the other one be Arya? "Well," the man said, "I never seen the little sweets, mind you, but he was wanting passage for three.""Passage where?" "T'other side o' the sea, as I recall.""Do you remember what he looked like?" "A fool." He snatched the spinning coin off the table as it began to slow, and made it vanish. "A frightened fool." "Frightened why?" He shrugged. "He never said, but old Nimble Dick knows the smell o' fear. He come here most every night, buying drinks for sailors, making japes, singing little songs. Only one night some men come in with that hunter on their teats, and your fool went white as milk and got quiet till they left." He edged his stool closer to hers. "That Tarly's got soldiers crawling over the docks, watching every ship that comes or goes. Man wants a deer, he goes t' the woods. He wants a ship, he goes t' the docks. Your fool didn't dare. So I offered him some help.""What sort of help?" "The sort that costs more than one silver stag.""Tell me, and you'll have another." "Let's see it," he said. She put another stag on the barrel. He spun it, smiled, scooped it up. "A man who can't go t' the ships need for the ships t' come t' him. I told him I knew a place where that might happen. A hidden place, like."Gooseprickles rose along Brienne's arms. "A smugglers' cove. You sent the fool to smugglers.""Him and them two girls." He chuckled. " Only thing, well, the place I sent them, been no ships there for a while. Thirty years, say." He scratched his nose. "What's this fool to you?" "Those two girls are my sisters.""Are they, now? Poor little things. Had a sister once meself. Skinny girl with knobby knees, but then she grew a pair o' teats and a knight's son got between her legs. Last I saw her she was off for King's Landing t' make a living on her back." "Where did you send them?" Another shrug. "As t' that, I can't recall." "Where?" Brienne slapped another silver stag down. He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. "Someplace no stag ever found . . . though a dragon might."
Wow what a thread! As for the last post, is it possible this fool is Tyrion? And the two sisters are Rosamund and Myrcella? Rosamund the less pretty cousin with the beautiful kind hearted Princess? Are they a nod to Lyanna and Ashara? As I believe Ashara could be Shaena Targaryen. There are a lot of sisters - related and not even remotely blood-related. Lyanna (abducted, dead) and Ashara (not dead and currently in disguise) also (not related, but may look alike) and their parallel of related sisters that don't look alike Arya (symbolically dead) and Sansa (willingly abducted with lies, and currently in disguise) Lyanna (abducted, dead) and Cersei (not dead) and (not related, and don't look alike) and their parallel of related look-alikes Rosamund (willingly disguised as Myrcella) and Myrcella (willingly abducted with lies) There are patterns here... Then there's the "stag" and "dragon". Surely Robert is the stag that never found the place where the abducted maiden was, and Rhaegar is probably the dragon, although "might" seems to imply that it's uncertain that he found where the abducted maiden was taken. I don't see how the stag and dragon are applied to the more current "sisters". Robert and Rhaegar are long dead, but the places where the sisters have been may be the same places as in the past? Arya went to Maidenpool and Saltpans before becoming "no one". Sansa went to the Eyrie Rosamund stayed at Sunspear Myrcella was brought to a well in the desert
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zena
Black Iron
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Post by zena on Mar 5, 2020 19:10:40 GMT
Wow what a thread! As for the last post, is it possible this fool is Tyrion? And the two sisters are Rosamund and Myrcella? Rosamund the less pretty cousin with the beautiful kind hearted Princess? Are they a nod to Lyanna and Ashara? As I believe Ashara could be Shaena Targaryen. There are a lot of sisters - related and not even remotely blood-related. Lyanna (abducted, dead) and Ashara (not dead and currently in disguise) also (not related, but may look alike) and their parallel of related sisters that don't look alike Arya (symbolically dead) and Sansa (willingly abducted with lies, and currently in disguise) Lyanna (abducted, dead) and Cersei (not dead) and (not related, and don't look alike) and their parallel of related look-alikes Rosamund (willingly disguised as Myrcella) and Myrcella (willingly abducted with lies) There are patterns here... Then there's the "stag" and "dragon". Surely Robert is the stag that never found the place where the abducted maiden was, and Rhaegar is probably the dragon, although "might" seems to imply that it's uncertain that he found where the abducted maiden was taken. I don't see how the stag and dragon are applied to the more current "sisters". Robert and Rhaegar are long dead, but the places where the sisters have been may be the same places as in the past? Arya went to Maidenpool and Saltpans before becoming "no one". Sansa went to the Eyrie Rosamund stayed at Sunspear Myrcella was brought to a well in the desert Lyanna and Ashara as false sisters would be nice, as they will be close to each other in age and actually be in same place, Cersei and Catelyn weren't present at Harrenhall after all. And like Arya/Sansa, Myrcella/Rosamund, they could be related albeit distantly as First Men families, is it possible for Dornish houses to marry Northern ones before/after Targaryens arrived?
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 6, 2020 20:32:09 GMT
Lyanna and Ashara as false sisters would be nice, as they will be close to each other in age and actually be in same place I do suspect that GRRM has created a deliberate parallel to Ashara and Lyanna with Lollys Stokewell and her sister Falyse. Recall that Lollys was gang raped, became pregnant, and now no one knows who the father of the child is. Meera's story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree has the Laughing Maid with Purple Eyes "dancing" with many men. Barristan Selmy said Ashara was dishonored, and it is mentioned that she had a daughter that died shortly after being born, but no one ever mentions a possible father - only that she turned to Stark. IMO there is a clear parallel between Lollys and Ashara. Now lets look at Lollys sister Falyse. Nobody, save Cersei, knows where Falyse is. She's imprisoned and being tortured down in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast. If you look at the spelling of Falyse it sort of looks like it'd be pronounced "false ee". Falyse is Lollys sister, but perhaps her name is a hint that we should consider Lyanna as Ashara's "false" sister? We could also entertain the idea that the word "false" may indicate that Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna. Keeping a young noblewoman named Falyse imprisoned could be interpreted as "false" - a lie, perhaps. Cersei certainly has been lying about Falyse's whereabouts, and if she is a parallel to Lyanna, then Lyanna's whereabouts may have been a lie too.
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zena
Black Iron
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Post by zena on Mar 7, 2020 12:27:52 GMT
Lyanna and Ashara as false sisters would be nice, as they will be close to each other in age and actually be in same place I do suspect that GRRM has created a deliberate parallel to Ashara and Lyanna with Lollys Stokewell and her sister Falyse. Recall that Lollys was gang raped, became pregnant, and now no one knows who the father of the child is. Meera's story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree has the Laughing Maid with Purple Eyes "dancing" with many men. Barristan Selmy said Ashara was dishonored, and it is mentioned that she had a daughter that died shortly after being born, but no one ever mentions a possible father - only that she turned to Stark. IMO there is a clear parallel between Lollys and Ashara. Now lets look at Lollys sister Falyse. Nobody, save Cersei, knows where Falyse is. She's imprisoned and being tortured down in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast. If you look at the spelling of Falyse it sort of looks like it'd be pronounced "false ee". Falyse is Lollys sister, but perhaps her name is a hint that we should consider Lyanna as Ashara's "false" sister? We could also entertain the idea that the word "false" may indicate that Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna. Keeping a young noblewoman named Falyse imprisoned could be interpreted as "false" - a lie, perhaps. Cersei certainly has been lying about Falyse's whereabouts, and if she is a parallel to Lyanna, then Lyanna's whereabouts may have been a lie too. Considering Cersei was supposed to marry Rhaegar then ended up marrying Robert to be Queen, Lyanna would be her biggest rival right? Did she had a hand in blaming Rhaegar and/or kidnapping of Lyanna? I think Ashara's dancing partners are easy to figure out, for me at least, she danced with Arthur, Oberyn, and Jon Connington, none of these men beside Ned Stark are love interest and we don't hear anything about a dishonor from Ned Dayne or Harwin. Stillborn daughter is new too, she is connected to Jon yes but not to any daughter before Barristan. So I doubt his words.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 9, 2020 15:31:54 GMT
I do suspect that GRRM has created a deliberate parallel to Ashara and Lyanna with Lollys Stokewell and her sister Falyse. Recall that Lollys was gang raped, became pregnant, and now no one knows who the father of the child is. Meera's story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree has the Laughing Maid with Purple Eyes "dancing" with many men. Barristan Selmy said Ashara was dishonored, and it is mentioned that she had a daughter that died shortly after being born, but no one ever mentions a possible father - only that she turned to Stark. IMO there is a clear parallel between Lollys and Ashara. Now lets look at Lollys sister Falyse. Nobody, save Cersei, knows where Falyse is. She's imprisoned and being tortured down in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast. If you look at the spelling of Falyse it sort of looks like it'd be pronounced "false ee". Falyse is Lollys sister, but perhaps her name is a hint that we should consider Lyanna as Ashara's "false" sister? We could also entertain the idea that the word "false" may indicate that Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna. Keeping a young noblewoman named Falyse imprisoned could be interpreted as "false" - a lie, perhaps. Cersei certainly has been lying about Falyse's whereabouts, and if she is a parallel to Lyanna, then Lyanna's whereabouts may have been a lie too. Considering Cersei was supposed to marry Rhaegar then ended up marrying Robert to be Queen, Lyanna would be her biggest rival right? Did she had a hand in blaming Rhaegar and/or kidnapping of Lyanna? I think Ashara's dancing partners are easy to figure out, for me at least, she danced with Arthur, Oberyn, and Jon Connington, none of these men beside Ned Stark are love interest and we don't hear anything about a dishonor from Ned Dayne or Harwin. Stillborn daughter is new too, she is connected to Jon yes but not to any daughter before Barristan. So I doubt his words. Yes, I agree Lyanna was Cersei's biggest rival with regards to either Rhaegar or Robert. I do not believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, but even if he had, Lyanna would still be Cersei's rival. I suspect there was a detachment sent by Tywin to capture Lyanna, who I believe was abducted only a month or two after the Harrenhal Tourney. IMO she and Howland fled shortly after Rhaegar presented her with the laurel. I'm drawing my ideas from Arya's journey and specifically when she served three nights out of every thirty at the House of Black and White. I think the three nights represent both the three squires she defended Howland from and the three knights that were defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If Lyanna had to "serve" three nights out of every thirty then that could indicate two months before being captured. Then there are the two examples of using someone else's armor in order to trick people. Arys Oakheart got one of his men to wear his armor and stationed him outside of Myrcella's apartment at Sunspear to guard Rosamund, then told the maester that Myrcella had red spots in order to discourage him from coming near. The second instance was when Garland Tyrell wore Renly's armor in order to confuse Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater. These two examples make me think that Tywin had a set of armor made to look like Rhaegar's and then gathered a detachment to pretend to be Rhaegar and his men so when they found Lyanna, people would believe it was Rhaegar. I believe Tywin planned the Rebellion and knew that Lyanna's abduction would be the trigger to set it off. He was already planning to support Robert for the throne and Lyanna's abduction and death would serve the double duty of providing an opening for Cersei to be queen - which was one of Tywin's main goals. Cersei didn't have to know what her father was up to, but then again she probably did know, because she had recall of when her father tried to make a match with Rhaegar before his marriage to Elia. I also believe the attack on Elia was meant to kill her and provide a second chance for Cersei to marry a widower Rhaegar. I too suspect the report that Ashara's dead child was a daughter was also a lie, but not one created by Barristan. I think it was well known that Ashara danced with many men, but I have a theory that Robert tried to force himself upon Ashara, but the rape was stopped before it could happen when Rhaegar found them together. I think this is the true meaning behind how Rhaegar's "song" made the wolfmaid "sniffle", and then the conversation between Lyanna and Ned about her concerns with Robert happened shortly after the telling. Then Rhaegar's presentation of the laurel may have been out of kindness. Maybe he thought it would cheer her up? Circling back to Ashara - I get sidetracked too easily! - the turning to Stark....Robert was Ned's friend and he was promised to Lyanna, so it only makes sense that Ashara "turned to Stark" or rather went to Ned to tell him about everything that had happened. Then the part of Meera's story about Ashara dancing with the Quiet Wolf is a hint that this is when their romance first blossomed. I think they had sex and Ashara became pregnant, but of course she couldn't have known she was pregnant until 6-8 weeks later. Very soon Lyanna would be missing and Brandon and Rickard's trial not long after. Ashara would have been very afraid to see the two Starks die plus Aerys's demand that Jon Arryn turn over Ned and Robert, so I think Ashara escaped Kings Landing out of fear for her unborn child. I think Ashara's fight from Kings Landing was similar to Sansa's in that she had help from a knight, (her brother perhaps?) and then left by ship with someone pretending to be her father - maybe even a maester. I theorize that her plan was to sail to the Eyrie to find Ned, and she does seem to be a good candidate to be the identity of the fisherman's daughter. There is another flight that seems to apply: Sam, Gilly, Aemon Steelsong, and Maester Aemon's sail to Oldtown. Maester Aemon died before the trip was final, and in the story of the fisherman's daughter, the fisherman reportedly died before Ned and the daughter reached the end of their sail. Sam brought Gilly and baby Aemon to his home at Horn Hill to raise the babe as his son. The inversion of this would be for Ned to bring Ashara and her unborn child to his home at Winterfell to raise as his son, which means I believe Ashara's child was Jon Snow.
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zena
Black Iron
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Post by zena on Mar 13, 2020 13:24:28 GMT
Considering Cersei was supposed to marry Rhaegar then ended up marrying Robert to be Queen, Lyanna would be her biggest rival right? Did she had a hand in blaming Rhaegar and/or kidnapping of Lyanna? I think Ashara's dancing partners are easy to figure out, for me at least, she danced with Arthur, Oberyn, and Jon Connington, none of these men beside Ned Stark are love interest and we don't hear anything about a dishonor from Ned Dayne or Harwin. Stillborn daughter is new too, she is connected to Jon yes but not to any daughter before Barristan. So I doubt his words. Yes, I agree Lyanna was Cersei's biggest rival with regards to either Rhaegar or Robert. I do not believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, but even if he had, Lyanna would still be Cersei's rival. I suspect there was a detachment sent by Tywin to capture Lyanna, who I believe was abducted only a month or two after the Harrenhal Tourney. IMO she and Howland fled shortly after Rhaegar presented her with the laurel. I'm drawing my ideas from Arya's journey and specifically when she served three nights out of every thirty at the House of Black and White. I think the three nights represent both the three squires she defended Howland from and the three knights that were defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If Lyanna had to "serve" three nights out of every thirty then that could indicate two months before being captured. Then there are the two examples of using someone else's armor in order to trick people. Arys Oakheart got one of his men to wear his armor and stationed him outside of Myrcella's apartment at Sunspear to guard Rosamund, then told the maester that Myrcella had red spots in order to discourage him from coming near. The second instance was when Garland Tyrell wore Renly's armor in order to confuse Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater. These two examples make me think that Tywin had a set of armor made to look like Rhaegar's and then gathered a detachment to pretend to be Rhaegar and his men so when they found Lyanna, people would believe it was Rhaegar. I believe Tywin planned the Rebellion and knew that Lyanna's abduction would be the trigger to set it off. He was already planning to support Robert for the throne and Lyanna's abduction and death would serve the double duty of providing an opening for Cersei to be queen - which was one of Tywin's main goals. Cersei didn't have to know what her father was up to, but then again she probably did know, because she had recall of when her father tried to make a match with Rhaegar before his marriage to Elia. I also believe the attack on Elia was meant to kill her and provide a second chance for Cersei to marry a widower Rhaegar. I too suspect the report that Ashara's dead child was a daughter was also a lie, but not one created by Barristan. I think it was well known that Ashara danced with many men, but I have a theory that Robert tried to force himself upon Ashara, but the rape was stopped before it could happen when Rhaegar found them together. I think this is the true meaning behind how Rhaegar's "song" made the wolfmaid "sniffle", and then the conversation between Lyanna and Ned about her concerns with Robert happened shortly after the telling. Then Rhaegar's presentation of the laurel may have been out of kindness. Maybe he thought it would cheer her up? Circling back to Ashara - I get sidetracked too easily! - the turning to Stark....Robert was Ned's friend and he was promised to Lyanna, so it only makes sense that Ashara "turned to Stark" or rather went to Ned to tell him about everything that had happened. Then the part of Meera's story about Ashara dancing with the Quiet Wolf is a hint that this is when their romance first blossomed. I think they had sex and Ashara became pregnant, but of course she couldn't have known she was pregnant until 6-8 weeks later. Very soon Lyanna would be missing and Brandon and Rickard's trial not long after. Ashara would have been very afraid to see the two Starks die plus Aerys's demand that Jon Arryn turn over Ned and Robert, so I think Ashara escaped Kings Landing out of fear for her unborn child. I think Ashara's fight from Kings Landing was similar to Sansa's in that she had help from a knight, (her brother perhaps?) and then left by ship with someone pretending to be her father - maybe even a maester. I theorize that her plan was to sail to the Eyrie to find Ned, and she does seem to be a good candidate to be the identity of the fisherman's daughter. There is another flight that seems to apply: Sam, Gilly, Aemon Steelsong, and Maester Aemon's sail to Oldtown. Maester Aemon died before the trip was final, and in the story of the fisherman's daughter, the fisherman reportedly died before Ned and the daughter reached the end of their sail. Sam brought Gilly and baby Aemon to his home at Horn Hill to raise the babe as his son. The inversion of this would be for Ned to bring Ashara and her unborn child to his home at Winterfell to raise as his son, which means I believe Ashara's child was Jon Snow. I wonder when Tywin decided to support Robert, maybe after Rhaegar married Elia? I do think Ned and Ashara had a thing at Harrenhall, but after reading markg171 post on Reddit, I think Ashara gave birth to two children, not one, first Ned's daughter Alllyria, and later to Rhaegar's child. Ashara carrying a child for Rhaegar and Elia all while the Princess is pretending to be pregnant is possible before the Tourney fiasco. Is it possible Rhaegar was skinchanged during the Tourney so he wouldn't crown Elia? Or is it purely prophecy related? The crown being blue roses made me think, Rhaegar's allies knew Lyanna will be the crowned one.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 13, 2020 14:33:23 GMT
Yes, I agree Lyanna was Cersei's biggest rival with regards to either Rhaegar or Robert. I do not believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, but even if he had, Lyanna would still be Cersei's rival. I suspect there was a detachment sent by Tywin to capture Lyanna, who I believe was abducted only a month or two after the Harrenhal Tourney. IMO she and Howland fled shortly after Rhaegar presented her with the laurel. I'm drawing my ideas from Arya's journey and specifically when she served three nights out of every thirty at the House of Black and White. I think the three nights represent both the three squires she defended Howland from and the three knights that were defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If Lyanna had to "serve" three nights out of every thirty then that could indicate two months before being captured. Then there are the two examples of using someone else's armor in order to trick people. Arys Oakheart got one of his men to wear his armor and stationed him outside of Myrcella's apartment at Sunspear to guard Rosamund, then told the maester that Myrcella had red spots in order to discourage him from coming near. The second instance was when Garland Tyrell wore Renly's armor in order to confuse Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater. These two examples make me think that Tywin had a set of armor made to look like Rhaegar's and then gathered a detachment to pretend to be Rhaegar and his men so when they found Lyanna, people would believe it was Rhaegar. I believe Tywin planned the Rebellion and knew that Lyanna's abduction would be the trigger to set it off. He was already planning to support Robert for the throne and Lyanna's abduction and death would serve the double duty of providing an opening for Cersei to be queen - which was one of Tywin's main goals. Cersei didn't have to know what her father was up to, but then again she probably did know, because she had recall of when her father tried to make a match with Rhaegar before his marriage to Elia. I also believe the attack on Elia was meant to kill her and provide a second chance for Cersei to marry a widower Rhaegar. I too suspect the report that Ashara's dead child was a daughter was also a lie, but not one created by Barristan. I think it was well known that Ashara danced with many men, but I have a theory that Robert tried to force himself upon Ashara, but the rape was stopped before it could happen when Rhaegar found them together. I think this is the true meaning behind how Rhaegar's "song" made the wolfmaid "sniffle", and then the conversation between Lyanna and Ned about her concerns with Robert happened shortly after the telling. Then Rhaegar's presentation of the laurel may have been out of kindness. Maybe he thought it would cheer her up? Circling back to Ashara - I get sidetracked too easily! - the turning to Stark....Robert was Ned's friend and he was promised to Lyanna, so it only makes sense that Ashara "turned to Stark" or rather went to Ned to tell him about everything that had happened. Then the part of Meera's story about Ashara dancing with the Quiet Wolf is a hint that this is when their romance first blossomed. I think they had sex and Ashara became pregnant, but of course she couldn't have known she was pregnant until 6-8 weeks later. Very soon Lyanna would be missing and Brandon and Rickard's trial not long after. Ashara would have been very afraid to see the two Starks die plus Aerys's demand that Jon Arryn turn over Ned and Robert, so I think Ashara escaped Kings Landing out of fear for her unborn child. I think Ashara's fight from Kings Landing was similar to Sansa's in that she had help from a knight, (her brother perhaps?) and then left by ship with someone pretending to be her father - maybe even a maester. I theorize that her plan was to sail to the Eyrie to find Ned, and she does seem to be a good candidate to be the identity of the fisherman's daughter. There is another flight that seems to apply: Sam, Gilly, Aemon Steelsong, and Maester Aemon's sail to Oldtown. Maester Aemon died before the trip was final, and in the story of the fisherman's daughter, the fisherman reportedly died before Ned and the daughter reached the end of their sail. Sam brought Gilly and baby Aemon to his home at Horn Hill to raise the babe as his son. The inversion of this would be for Ned to bring Ashara and her unborn child to his home at Winterfell to raise as his son, which means I believe Ashara's child was Jon Snow. I wonder when Tywin decided to support Robert, maybe after Rhaegar married Elia? I do think Ned and Ashara had a thing at Harrenhall, but after reading markg171 post on Reddit, I think Ashara gave birth to two children, not one, first Ned's daughter Alllyria, and later to Rhaegar's child. Ashara carrying a child for Rhaegar and Elia all while the Princess is pretending to be pregnant is possible before the Tourney fiasco. Is it possible Rhaegar was skinchanged during the Tourney so he wouldn't crown Elia? Or is it purely prophecy related? The crown being blue roses made me think, Rhaegar's allies knew Lyanna will be the crowned one. It's my opinion that Tywin decided to support Robert as soon as the attempt on Elia failed. I'm not familiar with markg171's post on Reddit. Do you have a link? Elia was pregnant with Aegon at the Harrenhal tourney, so I don't see any evidence for a fake pregnancy, nor do I think there was enough time for Ashara to give birth twice. What makes you think Allyria is Ned's daughter? The timeline for Elia's marriage, the birth of Rhaenys, the tourney, Aegon's birth, the Rebellion, and lastly Aegon's age at the Sack, don't leave enough time for Ashara to give birth to two children. We can go over this if you'd like, but I think we might have a separate thread for this topic. I'll check... As far as we know from the text, only people with blood of the First Men can skinchange. I suspect that Meera's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree was more of a parable than a literal retelling of the facts. Yes, there was a tourney, and yes, Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. Those two things are facts, but the rest seems too fanciful and symbolic to be literal. Yes, Rhaegar was known to play the harp, but don't think Lyanna was brought to tears simply by listening to him play. If Arya is like Lyanna, can you imagine Arya getting weepy over a stupid song? I suspect that Rhaegar had direct knowledge of Robert forcing himself upon Ashara and told Lyanna about it, and this is why she was upset and had her conversation with Ned. The method described of Lyanna's crowning also doesn't sound like a literal account to me. There's too much symbolism in the laurel being transferred from his tourney lance directly into her lap, as well as Ned's recollection of hidden thorns. There's the sexual connotation with the lance piercing the circlet as well as her lap. There's also the colloquial saying about something falling or dropping into your lap. It means you've received something without any effort. You can read that in multiple ways. If Lyanna received the laurel without any effort on her part, then it could remove blame for any part in the Knight of the Laughing Tree. It could also mean she wasn't pursuing the attention. And it could mean Rhaegar gave her the laurel without much thought similar to how Loras gave Sansa the rose when she watched him joust and then completely forgot about it when she asked him about it. The hidden thorns that Ned recalls can simply mean that Ned and Lyanna didn't realize the severity of the repercussions to their family. If the laurel was intended to be an honor, but it only led to bloodshed and death, then those would be the "thorns" hidden under the flowery honor.
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zena
Black Iron
Posts: 15
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Post by zena on Mar 15, 2020 14:17:11 GMT
I wonder when Tywin decided to support Robert, maybe after Rhaegar married Elia? I do think Ned and Ashara had a thing at Harrenhall, but after reading markg171 post on Reddit, I think Ashara gave birth to two children, not one, first Ned's daughter Alllyria, and later to Rhaegar's child. Ashara carrying a child for Rhaegar and Elia all while the Princess is pretending to be pregnant is possible before the Tourney fiasco. Is it possible Rhaegar was skinchanged during the Tourney so he wouldn't crown Elia? Or is it purely prophecy related? The crown being blue roses made me think, Rhaegar's allies knew Lyanna will be the crowned one. It's my opinion that Tywin decided to support Robert as soon as the attempt on Elia failed. I'm not familiar with markg171's post on Reddit. Do you have a link? Elia was pregnant with Aegon at the Harrenhal tourney, so I don't see any evidence for a fake pregnancy, nor do I think there was enough time for Ashara to give birth twice. What makes you think Allyria is Ned's daughter? The timeline for Elia's marriage, the birth of Rhaenys, the tourney, Aegon's birth, the Rebellion, and lastly Aegon's age at the Sack, don't leave enough time for Ashara to give birth to two children. We can go over this if you'd like, but I think we might have a separate thread for this topic. I'll check... As far as we know from the text, only people with blood of the First Men can skinchange. I suspect that Meera's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree was more of a parable than a literal retelling of the facts. Yes, there was a tourney, and yes, Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. Those two things are facts, but the rest seems too fanciful and symbolic to be literal. Yes, Rhaegar was known to play the harp, but don't think Lyanna was brought to tears simply by listening to him play. If Arya is like Lyanna, can you imagine Arya getting weepy over a stupid song? I suspect that Rhaegar had direct knowledge of Robert forcing himself upon Ashara and told Lyanna about it, and this is why she was upset and had her conversation with Ned. The method described of Lyanna's crowning also doesn't sound like a literal account to me. There's too much symbolism in the laurel being transferred from his tourney lance directly into her lap, as well as Ned's recollection of hidden thorns. There's the sexual connotation with the lance piercing the circlet as well as her lap. There's also the colloquial saying about something falling or dropping into your lap. It means you've received something without any effort. You can read that in multiple ways. If Lyanna received the laurel without any effort on her part, then it could remove blame for any part in the Knight of the Laughing Tree. It could also mean she wasn't pursuing the attention. And it could mean Rhaegar gave her the laurel without much thought similar to how Loras gave Sansa the rose when she watched him joust and then completely forgot about it when she asked him about it. The hidden thorns that Ned recalls can simply mean that Ned and Lyanna didn't realize the severity of the repercussions to their family. If the laurel was intended to be an honor, but it only led to bloodshed and death, then those would be the "thorns" hidden under the flowery honor. I would try to find his comment for you! I think Ashara* got pregnant after Harrenhall Tourney, gave birth to Allyria Dayne in 282 ac and if she was Fisherman's daughter than got pregnant with another child in early 283 ac, though this child will also be Ned's and not Rhaegar's like mark seem to hint - hell I want Ashara to be mother of Edric Dayne as well but he will be born at late 287 ac but Ned meeting her is possible considering he saw Joffrey as a babe and Joffrey was born in 286ac.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 15, 2020 16:12:05 GMT
I really wanted to find a way for Ned to be Edric Dayne’s father too, but Edric is too young, however I do suspect that Ashara is his mother. He just doesn’t know that Wylla the wetnurse is Ashara. What I propose is similar to the Bastard O’Winterfell story. The ailing Lord Stark had no male heir, but he had a daughter who was impregnated by a wildling. The child was legitimized and inherited Winterfell. I think House Dayne was out of male heirs and Ashara provided one, but since she had already faked her own death she could not reveal the child as her own. Rather she claimed Edric was her unnamed elder brother’s son and declared herself his wetnurse so that he could inherit Starfall.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 15, 2020 17:06:27 GMT
I think Allyria got pregnant after Harrenhall Tourney, gave birth to Allyria Dayne in 282 ac and if she was Fisherman's daughter than got pregnant with another child in early 283 ac, though this child will also be Ned's and not Rhaegar's I've started a timeline thread. Click HERE. This timeline is my own with the help of several others whom I have interacted with on various forums. The foundation of my timeline is Aegon's age at the time of the Sack, which the author confirms was about a year old, give or take a couple months. There are other details that are known, which I've made sure to include which are: 1) Rhaegar and Elia's wedding in 280 and the birth of their firstborn before the end of the year. 2) The length of time it was reported that Elia needed to recover before getting pregnant again. 3) The author's words that Jon and Daenerys are about nine months apart. 4) The ages stated in the books of Jaime prior to the Rebellion and Joffrey, Robb, and Jon at the beginning of AGOT. It's a juggling act, but I think my timeline satisfies all of the known elements. Any comments on the timeline should be discussed in the timeline thread. This topic of this thread is the Fisherman's Daughter.
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zena
Black Iron
Posts: 15
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Post by zena on Mar 16, 2020 8:03:24 GMT
I think Allyria got pregnant after Harrenhall Tourney, gave birth to Allyria Dayne in 282 ac and if she was Fisherman's daughter than got pregnant with another child in early 283 ac, though this child will also be Ned's and not Rhaegar's I've started a timeline thread. Click HERE. This timeline is my own with the help of several others whom I have interacted with on various forums. The foundation of my timeline is Aegon's age at the time of the Sack, which the author confirms was about a year old, give or take a couple months. There are other details that are known, which I've made sure to include which are: 1) Rhaegar and Elia's wedding in 280 and the birth of their firstborn before the end of the year. 2) The length of time it was reported that Elia needed to recover before getting pregnant again. 3) The author's words that Jon and Daenerys are about nine months apart. 4) The ages stated in the books of Jaime prior to the Rebellion and Joffrey, Robb, and Jon at the beginning of AGOT. It's a juggling act, but I think my timeline satisfies all of the known elements. Any comments on the timeline should be discussed in the timeline thread. This topic of this thread is the Fisherman's Daughter. I Will make sure to read your thread!
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