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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 29, 2017 23:03:22 GMT
Could the Rhaegar Lyanna marriage be some type of intential misdirection ... directed at the Three-Eyed Raven?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 30, 2017 0:30:50 GMT
Imagine the very worst motive/scenario, then work backwards to see if that fits the events that occurred... I think we're supposed to be playing a little game and assuming the worst. Maybe D&D aren't as stupid as they seem. Can you elaborate? What did you have in mind?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 30, 2017 1:04:30 GMT
Unfortunately, it seems every time I hold out hope that there is going to be a cool twist in this show, I become disappointed. Same. I've been trying to give the benefit of the doubt as soon as they ran out of source material, but.... What I have been doing, though, is trying to figure out what wheaty clues about the forthcoming books we *might* be able to separate from the HBO chaff - basically doing a side by side comparison of D&D's lousy show plot choices and GRRM's existing plots + SSMs, interviews, etc, and coming up with some data points that might actually be similar when you strip out all the mess. D&D said they know "broad strokes", given to them by GRRM, and the goal is to ferret out what those broad strokes might be away from the shitty HBO dramatic narrative. I mentioned a couple here, I believe (or somewhere, I dunno): 1)Barristan. He's still alive in the books and leading Meereen in Dany's absence, and dead in the show as a result of treachery by the sons of the Harpy. As we know, that treachery was pretty contrived and I don't think that GRRM will make the former LC of the KG so stupid as to fall for a trap like that, BUT....I *do* think that we got a good clue that Ser Barristan is going to die in Meereen. Hopefully heroically in battle at the walls instead of by being cornered in an alley, but yes. He will not return to Westeros. 2) Show!Myrcella dying at the hands of the Sand Snakes (I'm counting Fauxllaria as a Snake) makes me think that Book!Myrcella may have in fact died as a result of Darkstar's attack - we just don't know it yet. The concept is the same - a plot for revenge against the Lannisters as justice for Dorne, going against Doran Martell and his background machinations that the plotters assume mean weakness. In show world, this plot directly instigates Myrcella's death; in book world, Myrcella's death is an unfortunate byproduct. Either way, it pits Lannister against Martell. 3) In the show, we got Fauxllaria and the Sand Sluts. In the books, we have Arianne. In the Show, Fauxllaria and the Sand Sluts murder Doran & Trystane Martell. I believe this is a strong hint that in the books, Doran is going to bite it at the hands of someone close to him. Not sure if this will be Arianne, as they seemed to have kissed and made up after Arianne's failed Queenmaker plot. However, Faullaria is the show version of Arianne, so if Book!Arianne is indeed the perpetrator, IMO the only logical reason would be that Doran makes Trystane his heir after Quentyn's death, with Arianne's "legacy" being that she gets to marry fAegon and basically leave Dorne, which is not something she wants to do but is totally in line with Doran's mysterious master plan to get his revenge upon the Lannisters through fyre and blud. 4) Regardless of what happens to Doran, Cersei is going to kill Arianne....and Tyene, or whichever Sand Snake went to King's Landing to serve on the Council. 5) ShowUmbers betray House Stark and cause Rickon's death. IMO House Umber in the show is replacing House Manderly - book Wyman knows where Rickon is, sends Davos to retrieve him for purposes unknown, etc. 6) The "Sam & Gilly: Adventures at the Citadel!" plot is total bunk, but there IS someone else at the Citadel that can help Sam pore through dusty old scrolls ... a girl, at that, just like Gilly. Alleras/aka Sarella Sand. Alleras' presence in the books delivers a *believable* way for some chick to be helping Sam dig around in books for forgotten methods of Other extermination. I know there are more, I've forgotten several. My point though is that perhaps if we filter out all of the horrible RLJ exposition and boatsex, look hard at the reason they gave Jon the name "Aegon", and think about GRRM's story that we already have, maybe we can figure it out.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Aug 30, 2017 3:08:08 GMT
Could the Rhaegar Lyanna marriage be some type of intential misdirection ... directed at the Three-Eyed Raven? To be honest, I have a hard time mustering up enough enthusiasm to come up with a well thought out theory. But for what it's worth, show Arthur Dayne wishes Ned luck for the "wars to come", so I suppose there is some fore thought towards the Night's King. And if the Night's King is future Bran, then perhaps there is some attempt for a misdirection. I don't know, none of it really makes too much sense. Now perhaps the show runners are going with the predominant theory on the Westeros board, that Rhaegar believes that it is fate that a child with Lyanna is needed for the upcoming wars. I don't know, I'm not going to overthink this too much, because I have no faith in the show writers. At least as far as the books go, I basically agree that Rhaegar is influenced by prophecy and is engaging in a bit of genetic engineering to bring about his desired outcome. Now I personally think it's much more complicated than Rhaegar just fathering a bunch of messiahs, or dragon riders. My suspicion is Rhaegar and his group were collecting children of certain bloodlines, Targaryen offshoots of the main branch and children who possess King's blood of the First Men. And the ultimate goal was to sacrifice the children both to hatch dragons, and to bring about their ultimate goal which is it imbue a dragon with a human consciousness, specifically the consciousness of his son Aegon. And if that's the case, than I do believe that Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing before the Sack. Which is why I'm really intrigued by your theory about Sam being Aegon. Note Horn Hill is located in the foothills of the Red Mountains of Dorne, so it's in the proximity of the tower of joy. If Rhaegar needed his son close to the tower of joy, keeping him at Horn's Hill and in the care of the Tarlys makes sense. Now when everything went to shit, the Tarlys just raised Aegon/Sam as their own. That is until, Randyll got his own son, and at that point he needed to get rid of Sam. Now obviously there is no way the show can replicate this, even before they completely left the moorings of the books, it would have been too complicated for them to pull it off. The one swerve they can still pull out,however, is the Sam - Aegon switcharoo. Perhaps, the baby we saw in Bran's visions, was Aegon, Elia's son, who Lyanna may have been acting as a nursemaid for before she died giving birth to her own child, Jon. Now interestingly enough, the children that I believe may be the best candidates for the children who were slated to be sacrificed at the tower of joy, (along with Aegon) are Gendry, Brienne, Jon, and Meera. And all four of these characters are still around in the show. Now another thought did occur to me. If you've noticed, there have been several scenes where Jon has looked very queerly in the direction of the Night's King. I do wonder, if Aegon (Sam) is the Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai (the champion of fire), I wonder if Lyanna's son is the opposite, and Jon is slated to become the Night's King. (Now don't ask me how they are both existing at once). Jon is looking strangely at the Night's King because the Night's King is him. And if Rhaegar knew this, or figured it out, or prophecised this, then I wonder if that knowledge passed to Lyanna. In that case Lyanna may have had Ned promise to keep Aegon safe, but in a scene we're not yet privy to, she asked Ned to kill her child to prevent this from coming to pass.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 30, 2017 3:42:17 GMT
Perhaps, the baby we saw in Bran's visions, was Aegon, Elia's son, who Lyanna may have been acting as a nursemaid for before she died giving birth to her own child, Jon. This is kinda-sorta one of the arguments I was getting to with the Fisherman's Daughter essay. Something is telling me that Lyanna was at court - whether in service to Rhaella or Elia I don't know - and *somehow* she got involved with Aegon. If we go with the idea of Rhaegar/Aerys/both (I have not ruled out that father & son were working together, remind me to tell you guys a great story about this) experimenting in some child sacrifice stuff that put Aegon in danger, would Lyanna have taken it upon herself to rescue him? Be involved in a child-smuggling plot? I haven't fully fleshed this out, but I keep coming back to Lyanna's wolf blood that got her killed, her disappearance in the Riverlands, Rhaegar and his buds setting out on a quest in the middle of a renewed winter....all while Elia and baby Aegon are supposedly snuggled up on Dragonstone. Then I think about the parallels with Cat and Tyrion, and Cat 'kidnapping' Tyrion to serve justice upon him for trying to hurt her son. From the little we know about Lyanna, I don't get the feeling that she was violent - quite the opposite. So are we looking at an inversion here, in which Lyanna is the attempted protector of the child instead of the assassin? Could she have 'taken' Aegon? Arya's chapters - particularly those with Weasel and/or other young children - may provide some clues. Must reread.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 30, 2017 4:44:06 GMT
Also, before I go to bed and forget...
Tomorrow I will explore the parallel of Lyanna as nursemaid to Aegon and Sansa to Sweetrobin. Sly Wren pointed out a while ago that Lyanna's story has echoes in Sansa's arc as well as Arya's, but the idea of both girls acting as protectors of young sons of noble houses whose lives are more or less at risk just hit me. Parallels exploding in my brain!!
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 30, 2017 10:09:15 GMT
IMO GRRM wants us to view Ashara and Lyanna as sisters. Sansa's escape from Kings Landing parallels Ashara's, while Arya's movements through the Riverlands parallels Lyanna. Their paths cross somewhere near the Eyrie. Sansa of course goes to the Eyrie, while Arya and Sandor change their minds about going there and go to Riverrun instead. After Riverrun they change direction and go to the Saltpans, and ultimately Arya goes to Braavos. The inversion is Lyanna heads for the Eyrie but ends up near the Saltpans dying like Sandor, and Ashara is the Fisherman's Daughter and Ned buys her passage to Braavos.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 30, 2017 10:11:12 GMT
Regarding Cersei's pregnancy...do you think on the show we will find out that Ser Robert Strong is the father? Cersei's child will be a horrifying half-human baby.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 30, 2017 13:20:44 GMT
IMO GRRM wants us to view Ashara and Lyanna as sisters. Sansa's escape from Kings Landing parallels Ashara's, while Arya's movements through the Riverlands parallels Lyanna. Their paths cross somewhere near the Eyrie. Sansa of course goes to the Eyrie, while Arya and Sandor change their minds about going there and go to Riverrun instead. After Riverrun they change direction and go to the Saltpans, and ultimately Arya goes to Braavos. The inversion is Lyanna heads for the Eyrie but ends up near the Saltpans dying like Sandor, and Ashara is the Fisherman's Daughter and Ned buys her passage to Braavos. I have some thoughts like that floating about. My boss is out of the office today, so I will brain-dump into a Word doc and carry on this convo in the Fisherman's Daughter thread so as not to clog up a show thread any more. But yeah...similar.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 30, 2017 16:12:27 GMT
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Post by jnr on Aug 31, 2017 1:16:58 GMT
What's sad is that I KNEW all of this was coming, and I'm STILL going to bed depressed. Depressed because this either really is what GRRM has in store for us, or that we'll never find out what GRRM has in store for us and all we'll ever have is this shit story. Well, I am now reluctantly on board with the premise GRRM will never finish the series. But I do think he'll finish TWOW, and I also think TWOW will reveal Jon's parents, so hopefully we'll get that at least. You all give D&D to much credit.I expect this is all about getting Jonny boy on the throne for them. They have had no source material to work from and it showed. Nailed it shut. ETA: Ran even managed to get in a dig to jnr ! You're passively famous now, man! Thank you, thank you. But I'm afraid Ran hasn't heard the last from me on that topic. God willing, GRRM was wrong about the expected pub date of TWOW. I was frankly shocked shitless to read this stuff about needing another 1.5 years.
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Post by jnr on Aug 31, 2017 1:24:00 GMT
We're supposed to believe that Rhaegar secretly disowned his legitimate children Such a good point, and not just that. Consider: The show has already established conclusively that in Show World, an annulment requires the marriage was never consummated. We know this because it's the only reason Sansa was able to marry Ramsay despite already being married to Tyrion. Well, what with his two children, Rhaegar (I feel confident saying) consummated his marriage. So by Show World Logic, no annulment was even possible, and the whole concept is moot. And yet, this somehow wasn't the stupidest thing in this Hollywoodian turd. That honor, in my view, goes to the NK on the wighted dragon. I begin with a quote from the episode director: This is almost, but not quite, completely wrong. First, plenty of people have imagined a wighted dragon; I certainly have. I would bet more than half of Heresy has. Everyone reading this has. Jesus. Second, in the books it is incredibly well established that the wights are extremely flammable. They are, after all, freeze dried (it's why they smell dry). So! A wighted dragon that generated any sort of fire would instantly catch flame and burn itself to nothingness, just like the wight Jon killed, or the Hindenburg -- take your pyrotechnical pick. No possibility of burning down the Wall whatsoever. Third, it's unimaginable to anyone versed in the canon that a wighted dragon ever would generate any sort of flame. Wights are, we know from Jon's fight with Othor in AGOT, supernaturally cold: I rest my case. Of course, we can't expect much better from a show in which babies can be cuddled by Popsicles while riding hundreds of miles into intense winter without dying... Varys can teleport, and so can entire armies... and the Night's King, so far from being a Lord Commander of the Watch, is himself a Popsicle of the B-movie type whose invasion of the North appears to be an exaggerated case of... wait for it... wight privilege.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 14:57:40 GMT
Did anyone catch this in the finale? Question is why the NK would pattern his army in the shape of the Stark sigil I'm also still very suspicious at the placement of Longclaw in the last episode, and how the wolf head was prominently displayed when Jon - doesn't die.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 31, 2017 15:11:10 GMT
I want to Like that 100 times! Yes, I noticed that formation - was like, wait, that's a pattern that's NOT a spiral- but then totally forgot about it. Awesome!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 17:46:04 GMT
Wish I could take the credit, I was looking for a screenshot of Cersei's new crown. Pretty amazing eh? Consider: The show has already established conclusively that in Show World, an annulment requires the marriage was never consummated. We know this because it's the only reason Sansa was able to marry Ramsay despite already being married to Tyrion. Well, what with his two children, Rhaegar (I feel confident saying) consummated his marriage. So by Show World Logic, no annulment was even possible, and the whole concept is moot. Unless the show is suggesting that showElia's children weren't showRhaegar's, which is so dismissive of the entire Dorne line, absolutely, we already went through this and Tyrion even brought it up to Jon this season. And still unanswered - both in the book and on the show - is why Rhaegar and Lyanna would let their loved ones be slaughtered and an entire war be waged, start to finish, without letting anyone know what the deal was.
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