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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 13:03:59 GMT
Melifeather also brought this up. I had mentioned it a few times here in the show threads and made a thread over at W that went nowhere, just wanted to gather intel here. Here's my post there: Cersei has been strange this season with Jaime, and I figured out why. The father of her baby is Gregor Clegane/Robert Strong, not Jaime. Her children are all dead, and Jaime keeps reminding her of that, that they're fighting for a dead legacy. So, she decides instead to have a child from the strongest man she knows. And yeah, I think Qyburn is capable of artificially inseminating her, but Robert Strong is also possibly functional in a normal way. This is GoT anyway. When Jaime asks her, who will you say is the father? She says she will say it's Jaime. This is a class Cersei move, just like saying Robert was the father of the other children. She makes sure the servant sees Jaime in her bed, so everyone can assume it was him. But the clincher for me - I had come up with this notion before watching the show last night - was when Tormund says that he wants to make "unstoppable monster" babies with Brienne. Unstoppable monsters would be exactly the kind of babies Cersei wants. - Tormund's exact words: I want to make babies with [Brienne]. Think of em. Great big monsters, they'd conquer the world.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 13:12:23 GMT
Then I had a worse thought, what if Brienne is the intended target for a breeding attempt using Ser Robert? Suddenly gives a different reason for all Cersei's eye-narrowing at Brienne, she was considering something.
Perhaps her pregnancy failed? Whether it was Jaime's or Gregors (artificial insemination? not sure) Qyburn says he'll "give her something" when Jaime comes into see her and asks why Qyburn is in her chambers. We were meant to hear that and wonder what it meant. Give her something for the pain of a miscarriage?
Maybe she needs to find someone stronger to carry the monster baby. Tormund outright tells us Brienne would be capable of doing that.
Gregor is a rapist, we already know that. We have no reason to think he can't operate independently, after all Cersei left him alone with Septa Unella to torture her. But maybe it was more than torture?
Conjecture would be Cersei somehow holding Brienne prisoner with this vile intent. This gives us two extraordinary motives - Jaime against Cersei, and Sandor against Gregor - for a rescue of Brienne, a Jaime/Cersei final confrontation, and Cleganebowl.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 13:17:44 GMT
The bigger question of course - in the interest of wheels and parallels and mirrors and inversions - is: who in the past wanted to make an unstoppable monster baby by breeding something unnatural/semi-human/undead with a human?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 31, 2017 13:35:36 GMT
Not much time to respond, but re: Brienne: perhaps she is being set up as the Bride of Frankenstein? Cersei could have two huge twin guards, like Erryk and Arryk of old.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 31, 2017 13:49:44 GMT
the Bride of Frankenstein Perfect way to put it
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 31, 2017 17:59:52 GMT
The bigger question of course - in the interest of wheels and parallels and mirrors and inversions - is: who in the past wanted to make an unstoppable monster baby by breeding something unnatural/semi-human/undead with a human? When I made the suggestion of Robert Strong I was also thinking of the woman Bran sees in the weirwood vision where she asks for a son to avenge her. Either he foresaw Cersei or Cersei is replaying this on the wheel of time.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 1, 2017 0:47:35 GMT
The bigger question of course - in the interest of wheels and parallels and mirrors and inversions - is: who in the past wanted to make an unstoppable monster baby by breeding something unnatural/semi-human/undead with a human? A Dance with Dragons - Bran I "A monster," Bran said. The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark." "Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 1:22:16 GMT
I don't care about checking my worst impulses - Cersei soundbite
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 1:25:11 GMT
The bigger question of course - in the interest of wheels and parallels and mirrors and inversions - is: who in the past wanted to make an unstoppable monster baby by breeding something unnatural/semi-human/undead with a human? A Dance with Dragons - Bran I "A monster," Bran said. The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark." "Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours." Spitballing here, but what if only Starks are capable of breeding - or attempted breeding - with the Others? Like the BOOK Night King gave his seed and his soul to the cold woman. What if giving his soul in such a manner is what coldhanded Coldhands? And what if Lyanna gave her soul in the same way, to end up with her hands dead and black? My thought about Brienne is that she was always destined to play a part opposite the Sword of the Morning, being the daughter of the Evenstar and all that. This is also part of Jaime's dream with the two swords and Brienne. The World Book talks about a Sword of the Evening, and I think Brienne is the best candidate. Maybe this is how it happens.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 1, 2017 2:52:24 GMT
Spitballing here, but what if only Starks are capable of breeding - or attempted breeding - with the Others? Guess that depends upon how much legitimacy you give to Old Nan's tales, what with wildlings laying with them to birth terrible half-human children, etc etc. Now were you to propose that only CERTAIN Starks were capable of such...like, say, all the Brandons, or perhaps children of Brandons, or descendants of a specific bloodline... On that note, have you looked at the Stark family tree in close detail? You may remember from some ancient post of mine that Lyanna is the first daughter of a Stark-Stark marriage since Cregan Stark wed Lynara Stark (and begat sons Brandon, Jonnel, Barthogan, and Edric, as well as daughter Lyanna), and that she is the first daughter of a Stark-Stark marriage descended solely from the line of Cregan. But that's not all. Since the two generations BEFORE Cregan (and I have no idea how close that is to Torrhen Stark and/or the old Kings of Winter), there has only been ONE Brandon Stark that became ruling Lord of Winterfell - Cregan's son with Lynara. (There have been a couple of other Brandon Starks, but those have been products of marriages with other northern houses, and those Brandons either had no issue or the line went cold somewhere soon after.) Brandon the Wild Wolf, Ned's brother, would have been the second in the past 250-300 years. Oddly enough, Cregan's son Brandon is the ONLY Stark noted to have produced a bastard son - Lonnel Snow- with one WYLLA Fenn, before marrying a Karstark and producing legit heirs (including the next ruling lord, Beron). And this Brandon was actually the unlikely lord of Winterfell, assuming rule only after the infertility of one brother and the untimely death of the next. Even though our current Ned only had the one older brother, that brother did die and his younger brother took a glorified vow of chastity, so there's that for a parallel. Even more odd, Cregan's daughter Lyanna totally dead-ends. No mention of death, no marriage, no issue. She simply...disappears. I wonder - could she have been flagged for some OTHER purpose?? A dearth of Brandons in a house founded by a Brandon, a bastard Snow, and a daughter who mysteriously vanishes. Very, very interesting setup there. Think we can extrapolate from that? Why so few Brandons? What happened to the Bastard of Winterfell? Why do Lyannas seem to fare so poorly in House Stark? A girl ponders. Have no idea how this relates to Cersei's monster spawn, fwiw.
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Post by min on Sept 1, 2017 3:55:45 GMT
That creeps me out as much as the idea that Robert's head is attached to the Mountain's body. LOL Although that doesn't seem to be the case for show purposes. However, since she has already turned the Mountain on a Septa; I don't think she would have any qualms about Brienne. Part of me thinks that's she's been fooling around with Euron and part of me thinks she's lying to Jaimie about being pregnant. I'm not sure Clegane could produce any living genes but could he be used in a shadowbaby experiment by Qyburn? I've always wondered what Qyburn was doing with all the women turned over to him by Cersei when he had Clegane in the cellar. What he meant exactly when he said they were all used up.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 1, 2017 17:15:37 GMT
Oddly enough, Cregan's son Brandon is the ONLY Stark noted to have produced a bastard son - Lonnel Snow- with one WYLLA Fenn,
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 19:00:57 GMT
I wrote a YUGE response to everything here but lost it because of a proboards hiccup. Will try to recreate Gist is that genetic engineering is happening everywhere in the story, from Rhaegar reading prophecies, to the blood magic that resulted in Rhaego, to Lyanna being destined as a breeder, to showCersei doing what she's doing. Tormund's line about making monster babies with Brienne is a direct link to one of the very first sentences in the books, that the wildlings lay with the Others to make terrible half-human babies. The way that sentence is structured - the wildings CHOSE to lay with the Others. Maybe for the same reason Tormund has stated. They'd conquer the world. They'd survive. Within a story about the obliteration of families and bloodlines (Rains/Reynes of Castamere), it should be more obvious that the biological imperative is central to the story, there is plenty of historical references for that to be important. In the show, we're witnessing this firsthand with Cersei having lost all her children. She needs another plans, and she's even more determined to create a Lannister legacy. She doesn't even need Jaime around anymore to make this happen. The show might be handing us this storyline - about Cersei GMOing Robert Strong (and possibly Brienne) - because the truth is WORSE in the books, that for generations the Stark women have been subject to genetic engineering experiments. This all ties into the story of the Night's King as well as Craster, who is likely a Stark descendant.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 19:13:07 GMT
I've always wondered what Qyburn was doing with all the women turned over to him by Cersei when he had Clegane in the cellar. What he meant exactly when he said they were all used up. A brilliant catch - exactly my point. Qyburn and Cersei have been trying to breed Ser Robert Strong. Next time you watch the finale, catch Cersei looking at Brienne - imagine her sizing up Brienne as the right vessel for Gregor's monster baby. I did and it gave me chills. Tormund already told us to look at Brienne for this purpose. Tormund says Brienne is as tall as the Hound. Then we see the Hound standing against his brother - they're the same height. Anyone can then see that Brienne is a match for the Mountain. How this plays out on the show, we'll see. SO - my point is that this genetic engineering thing is central to the story and it is supposed to reflect something that happened before, namely, with LYANNA. I wonder - could she have been flagged for some OTHER purpose?? I think Rhaegar read a prophecy about how Lyanna's monster baby would be the death of his family line, and I think he warned the Starks that he knew about their nefarious plans for Lyanna through giving her the blue rose garland. That's why they freaked out and no one else cared. I think Lyanna was already pregnant when Rhaegar "kidnapped" her. I think she willingly went along with it because she was escaping this horrible fate. This explains why she didn't try and let anyone know she was alive. It explains why Brandon and Rickard went to KL, it explains everything. It explains that the KG were there to KILL the baby, not save it, though I'm not ruling out realAegon being there are some point as well. (As you all know, that's Sam, heh) The Night's King - mayhaps his name was Brandon Stark - tried (?) to breed with the Ice Queen, he lost his soul. Is this how someone is coldhanded? Was Lyanna coldhanded (palm, dead and black [bizaaro misplaced modifier from a professional writer])? Was Jon born of a dead mother, like the direwolf in Chapter One of GoT? Yarp.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 1, 2017 19:31:58 GMT
I have soooo many thoughts on this and of course can't handle from my phone. This line of thought - esp Lyanna being unwilling participant in the Mengele breeding program - ties into this stupid Marvel essay that I can't seem to finish. I want to post the whole thing so the big reveal can be a wow moment, but gaaaah!! In order to explain the connection to these thoughts, I have to dump the theory for you first. But omg, you will love it!!! Commence mental dilemma now
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