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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 19:43:35 GMT
This also explains why the Stark Maiden of Bael fame chose to hide in the crypts and birth a child there, instead of letting her father know she was alive and well. She was trying to escape her fate, that there must always be a Stark WOMAN in Winterfell?
Ned wasn't clued in to any of this because Rickard and Brandon died, he was only the second son.
Not sure if we know when Ned died in comparison timeline wise to when Benjen disappeared and when Winterfell was empty of Starks, but was Benjen taken for breeding because of this?
So I guess the question is who impregnated Lyanna, and I don't think it's a secret that I always thought it was an Other. The Great Other and the Night King seem to get conflated between book and show, but I think that's the secret.
The entire fandom is buzzing that Bran is the Night's King, when we talked about all of this years ago in the Bran the Timelord threads. I have zero problem with Bran being the Great Other, but I have other ideas for who the Great Other is.
And I believe the show went out of their way to tell us that Bran's visions are not infallible. RLJ could yet turn out to be a lie. Imagine you're the Great Other and you're trying to conquer the world - or something - and there is a simple way to get your child on the throne, through a simple lie to a vulnerable and impressionable wizard-boy.
Bran never sees the whole scene in the ToJ, and Sam has to fill in a huge blank. Bran's visions at this point (in the show) are not the iron clad truth.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 1, 2017 19:52:50 GMT
"So I guess the question is who impregnated Lyanna, and I don't think it's a secret that I always thought it was an Other. The Great Other and the Night King seem to get conflated between book and show, but I think that's the secret."
THERE IS ANOTHER
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 19:54:17 GMT
mwahahaaa... the Cersei storyline in the show made all of this clear.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 1, 2017 19:58:55 GMT
No seriously- there's another contender for Lyannas monster baby daddy. And it involves a second person kidnappinf the mother in hopes of fathering this babe himself...but he fails.
It all comes from 1970s Marvel
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 20:02:09 GMT
telll meeeeeeeeeee
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 1, 2017 20:07:31 GMT
Look to the trees, dude. With Howlands help.
More tonight when I have a desktop
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 1, 2017 21:15:28 GMT
Honestly, we should be writing for the show, it would make it a lot more interesting. But I'm intrigued about the idea of Lyanna as a breeding mare. One thing that occurred to me during my incessant war with the Westeros board over the time line, is that GRRM has created a long enough time line for lyanna to have given birth two times between the date of her disappearance and upon her death (presumably) after the tower of joy encounter.
Time block 1: Lyanna disappears - Brandon and friends go to King's Landing - Brandon and friends are imprisoned - ravens are sent to various kingdoms demanding their fathers report to King's Landing - fathers and sons are killed - raven is sent to the Eyrie demanding that Eddard and Robert are turned over.
Time block 2: Jon Arryn refuses and calls in his banners - the lords of Gulltown refuse and Robert and Jon Arryn have to storm Gullstown, in the meantime Eddard and the fisherman's daughter are making their way from the Vale to White Harbor - Robert and company secure Gullstown and Robert gets on a ship that takes him to Storm's End - Eddard goes to Winterfell and calls in his banners - Roberts calls his banners - The battle at Summerhall occurs as Robert defeats the lords in the Stormlands that oppose him - Robert and company march to Ashford where he loses a major battle against Lords Tyrell and Tarly - Robert's forces retreat to the Riverlands to meet up with Eddard's northern host that is marching south - Tyrell forces move towards Storm's End - Redwyne fleet is making their way around Dorne to Storm's End - Robert hides in the Stoney Sept - The siege of Storm's End commences.
Time block 3: Robert hides in Stoney Sept nursing his wounds for an unknown amount of time -Connington's forces descend upon Stoney Sept and search for Robert - Eddard's Arryn's and Hoster's hosts reach Stoney Sept - the Battle of the Bells occurs - Connington's army is defeated and is scattered - Connington is removed as Hand and is exiled - Eddard and Jon Arryn marry Catelyn and Lyssa at Riverrun - Robb is conceieved Eddard and Jon leave to continue fighting the war -
Time block 4: Rhaegar returns from the south and exorts his father to send a raven to Casterly Rock for assistance - Aerys sends Lewyn Martell to take command of the Dornish forces in the pass - Darry and Selmy round up what remains of Connington's troops - Aerys starts his plans to blow up King's Landing - Lewyn arrives with the Dornish forces - Darry and Selmy return with the royal army - Rhaegar takes command of the armies at King's Landing - the Mace and Dagger hand is burned alive and Dany is allegedly conceived - a so spake martin has Jon being born around the time of Dany's conception - Rhaegar, Lewyn, Darry, and Selmy set out with the royal army to the River Lands - Roberts forces meet them at Ruby Ford - Rhaegar is killed, Robert is injured and Eddard takes command of the troops and marches for King's Landing - the Lannister forces arrive at King's Landing first and the Sack of king's landing commences
Time block 5: The Sack ends - Robert arrives at King's Landing and is presented the bodies of Elia's children - Eddard leaves angry and proceeds to fight the remaining battles in the south - Eddard lifts the Sack at Storm's end
Time block 6: Eddard somehow finds out about the location of the tower of joy and travels there with his six friends to the tower of joy - Eddard travels to Starfall to return Dawn - Eddard goes to Barrow Hall to return Lord Dustin's horse - Catelyn arrives at Winterfell to find Jon and Jon's wetnurse
Known timeframes: 1. Almost a year goes by from the start of the war to the beginning of the Sack at King's Landing. 2. Almost a year elapses from the start of the siege of Storm's End until the end of the Siege 3. a Year elapses from the wedding night of Eddard and Catelyn to when Catelyn sees Eddard again at Winterfell.
Thus: Time blocks 2, 3, and 4 take almost a year. Time blocks 3, 4, and 5 take almost a year. Time blocks 4,5, and 6 take almost a year.
Based on this we can figure out that timeblock 5 is roughly equal to timeblock 2. So the time between the Sack and the end of the Siege of King's landing takes approximately the same amount of time as the time between Arryn calling his banners and the Taryly/Tyrell contingent laying siege to Storm's End. We can also figure that roughly the same amount of time elapses between the end of the siege of Storm's End and Catelyn arriving at Winterfell as the time that Robert spent retreating to the Stoney Septs, Robert hiding in the Stoney Septs - the Battle of the Bells and the marriages of Eddard, Cat, Jon Arryn, and Lyssa
In other words, a lot more time elapsed after the Sack of King's Landing than most people assume. I would argue enough time for Lyanna to have given birth two times.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 21:48:37 GMT
Brynden Rivers? So... I found this thing when wondering if Elia's kids weren't Rhaegar's. Remember that Elia's caravan was attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood? She was being protected by the White Bull. Ulmer of the Night's Watch said he injured Gerold's hand, and stole a kiss from Elia. I thought this would have been the perfect time for Elia to have been attacked. The chest of gold that Ulmer said they stole, could have been a euphemism for something else? Dunno. But. So... Barristan Selmy's entry in the White Book says he defeated The Smiling Knight in combat. Was this the same event, or a different event? No matter really, what matters is that the Smiling Knight sounds awfully like the Knight of the Laughing Tree, at least in name. More so, what matters is that Jaime said that the Smiling Knight was the Mountain of his boyhood = a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. Let's just remember Jaime said this, and that if the current Mountain is being used for genetic engineering, boom parallel. So... the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne, then fought the Smiling Knight, and they had an exchange about Dawn. Ultimately the Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight. So if we connect the Smiling Knight to the Knight of the Laughing Tree - who I believe was being warged during the Tourney of Harrenhal, they could both be connected to... either Brynden Rivers or Bran Stark. Further - sorry - if Brienne is destined to become Sword of the Evening, we've got several matches in the events of the Smiling Knight.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 1, 2017 21:57:11 GMT
GRRM has created a long enough time line for lyanna to have given birth two times between the date of her disappearance and upon her death (presumably) after the tower of joy encounter. Absolutely, I remember plenty of arguments over there on this point. Time block 1: Lyanna disappears - Brandon and friends go to King's Landing - Brandon and friends are imprisoned - ravens are sent to various kingdoms demanding their fathers report to King's Landing - fathers and sons are killed - raven is sent to the Eyrie demanding that Eddard and Robert are turned over. Time block 2: Jon Arryn refuses and calls in his banners - the lords of Gulltown refuse and Robert and Jon Arryn have to storm Gullstown, in the meantime Eddard and the fisherman's daughter are making their way from the Vale to White Harbor - Robert and company secure Gullstown and Robert gets on a ship that takes him to Storm's End - Eddard goes to Winterfell and calls in his banners - Roberts calls his banners - The battle at Summerhall occurs as Robert defeats the lords in the Stormlands that oppose him - Robert and company march to Ashford where he loses a major battle against Lords Tyrell and Tarly - Robert's forces retreat to the Riverlands to meet up with Eddard's northern host that is marching south - Tyrell forces move towards Storm's End - Redwyne fleet is making their way around Dorne to Storm's End - Robert hides in the Stoney Sept - The siege of Storm's End commences. Time block 3: Robert hides in Stoney Sept nursing his wounds for an unknown amount of time -Connington's forces descend upon Stoney Sept and search for Robert - Eddard's Arryn's and Hoster's hosts reach Stoney Sept - the Battle of the Bells occurs - Connington's army is defeated and is scattered - Connington is removed as Hand and is exiled - Eddard and Jon Arryn marry Catelyn and Lyssa at Riverrun - Robb is conceieved Eddard and Jon leave to continue fighting the war - Time block 4: Rhaegar returns from the south and exorts his father to send a raven to Casterly Rock for assistance - Aerys sends Lewyn Martell to take command of the Dornish forces in the pass - Darry and Selmy round up what remains of Connington's troops - Aerys starts his plans to blow up King's Landing - Lewyn arrives with the Dornish forces - Darry and Selmy return with the royal army - Rhaegar takes command of the armies at King's Landing - the Mace and Dagger hand is burned alive and Dany is allegedly conceived - a so spake martin has Jon being born around the time of Dany's conception - Rhaegar, Lewyn, Darry, and Selmy set out with the royal army to the River Lands - Roberts forces meet them at Ruby Ford - Rhaegar is killed, Robert is injured and Eddard takes command of the troops and marches for King's Landing - the Lannister forces arrive at King's Landing first and the Sack of king's landing commences Time block 5: The Sack ends - Robert arrives at King's Landing and is presented the bodies of Elia's children - Eddard leaves angry and proceeds to fight the remaining battles in the south - Eddard lifts the Sack at Storm's end Time block 6: Eddard somehow finds out about the location of the tower of joy and travels there with his six friends to the tower of joy - Eddard travels to Starfall to return Dawn - Eddard goes to Barrow Hall to return Lord Dustin's horse - Catelyn arrives at Winterfell to find Jon and Jon's wetnurse Known timeframes: 1. Almost a year goes by from the start of the war to the beginning of the Sack at King's Landing. 2. Almost a year elapses from the start of the siege of Storm's End until the end of the Siege 3. a Year elapses from the wedding night of Eddard and Catelyn to when Catelyn sees Eddard again at Winterfell. Thus: Time blocks 2, 3, and 4 take almost a year. Time blocks 3, 4, and 5 take almost a year. Time blocks 4,5, and 6 take almost a year. Based on this we can figure out that timeblock 5 is roughly equal to timeblock 2. So the time between the Sack and the end of the Siege of King's landing takes approximately the same amount of time as the time between Arryn calling his banners and the Taryly/Tyrell contingent laying siege to Storm's End. We can also figure that roughly the same amount of time elapses between the end of the siege of Storm's End and Catelyn arriving at Winterfell as the time that Robert spent retreating to the Stoney Septs, Robert hiding in the Stoney Septs - the Battle of the Bells and the marriages of Eddard, Cat, Jon Arryn, and Lyssa One of the best timeline of events I've read on any board. In other words, a lot more time elapsed after the Sack of King's Landing than most people assume. I would argue enough time for Lyanna to have given birth two times. Who would you say her two children are then? I kind of have an idea what you'd say but let's go for it.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 1, 2017 22:17:15 GMT
Officially Lyanna was promised to Robert Baratheon, the Storm Lord and who was supposedly "a maiden's dream"...large and muscled enough to wield a hammer in battle. IMO Robert was the Smiling Knight, that there was never a real battle between Arthur Dayne and the Smiling Knight, just a cover story for the people involved in kidnapping Lyanna, who happen to mirror the Kingswood Brotherhood.
Getting back to Robert for a moment. Think about the origin story of Storm's End. From the wiki:
Legend claims that it was built by Durran, the first Storm King during the Dawn Age, who declared a war against the gods after they killed his family and guests, ruining his wedding to their daughter Elenei. It was said Durran Godsgrief raised six castles, each larger and more formidable than the last, but all were destroyed by storms. The massive seventh castle, Storm's End, is also called Durran's Defiance, because it was able to endure the storms. Some believe this was because the children of the forest took a hand in its construction, using their magics in raising the castle walls which allow it to resist the storms. Others believe that a young boy who grew up to be Bran the Builder advised Durran on its construction.
Meanwhile, Elenei is said to have been the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. She gave her maidenhead to Durran, committing herself to a mortal life. Her divine parents forbade their love, but Durran and Elenei wed despite them. The gods' wrath was terrible to behold, destroying Durran's keep on his wedding night, killing all his family and guests. Elenei protected Durran from the storm, however. Enraged, Durran declared war on the gods, who replied by hammering his kingdom with massive storms. Each time Durran built a castle to face the sea, the gods destroyed it.
Robert is Durran reborn, and Lyanna is Elenei, the divine daughter of gods. Their union may have angered the old gods like Durran and Elenei did, because their children would be "monsters" or half-gods. The reference to Bran the Builder helping in the "construction" has layered meaning. We're getting an origin story of eugenics. So if Lyanna was already pregnant, her child may have been Robert's if they were paralleling Durran and Elenei.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 2, 2017 0:55:09 GMT
Maybe yes, maybe no. So... the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne, then fought the Smiling Knight, and they had an exchange about Dawn. Ultimately the Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight. So if we connect the Smiling Knight to the Knight of the Laughing Tree - who I believe was being warged during the Tourney of Harrenhal, they could both be connected to... either Brynden Rivers or Bran Stark. DUUUUDE MEGA MONDO 12' PARTY SUBS You are touching all the bases, and I am so beyond excited that you brought up the Smiling Knight, because that totally plays into the trees thing.
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Post by min on Sept 2, 2017 1:28:06 GMT
So... I found this thing when wondering if Elia's kids weren't Rhaegar's. Remember that Elia's caravan was attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood? She was being protected by the White Bull. Ulmer of the Night's Watch said he injured Gerold's hand, and stole a kiss from Elia. I thought this would have been the perfect time for Elia to have been attacked. The chest of gold that Ulmer said they stole, could have been a euphemism for something else? Dunno. Oh my! Does this ring a bell? The Dornishman’s wife: The Dornishman's (Rhaegar) wife (Elia) was as fair as the sun And her kisses were warmer than spring But the Dornishman's blade (Arthur Dayne?) was made of black steel (relic of the Targaryens) And its kiss was a terrible thing (a blade so sharp it cuts at the merest touch) The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed (water gardens) In a voice that was sweet as a peach (blood peaches) But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own (the song of ice and fire?) And a bite sharp and cold as a leech (the Dawn sword?) As he (Ulmer) lay on the ground with the darkness around And the taste of his blood on his tongue His brothers (Kingswood Brotherhood) knelt by him and prayed him a prayer And he smiled and he laughed and he sung "Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done The Dornishman's taken my life (sent to the Wall) But what does it matter, for all men must die And I've tasted the Dornishman's wife! Rhaegar isn't a man from Dorne but their man in the war against Aerys. In other words the Dornish's man. The Dornishman's wife is Elia Martel. The Dornishman's blade is Arthur Dayne and the song is about the battle of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Mance sings this song when he first meets Jon Snow. Why does Jon Snow remember that song when he thinks Mance is being burned at the stake? How likely is it that Elia would have been the only woman in that company? I would think that she would have at least one other lady in waiting with her. Ashara Dayne perhaps? Did Ulmer mistake Ashara 'as fair as the sun' for Elia?
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 2, 2017 2:31:35 GMT
Maybe yes, maybe no. So... the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne, then fought the Smiling Knight, and they had an exchange about Dawn. Ultimately the Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight. So if we connect the Smiling Knight to the Knight of the Laughing Tree - who I believe was being warged during the Tourney of Harrenhal, they could both be connected to... either Brynden Rivers or Bran Stark. DUUUUDE MEGA MONDO 12' PARTY SUBS You are touching all the bases, and I am so beyond excited that you brought up the Smiling Knight, because that totally plays into the trees thing. When will we get to read the trees thing?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 2, 2017 3:25:58 GMT
lol. different trees thing - this one is for Marvel, not the FD stuff.
Am working on it right now. It's nearly done, should have ready this weekend.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 3, 2017 18:58:11 GMT
Gist is that genetic engineering is happening everywhere in the story, from Rhaegar reading prophecies, to the blood magic that resulted in Rhaego, to Lyanna being destined as a breeder, to showCersei doing what she's doing. Tormund's line about making monster babies with Brienne is a direct link to one of the very first sentences in the books, that the wildlings lay with the Others to make terrible half-human babies. The way that sentence is structured - the wildings CHOSE to lay with the Others. Maybe for the same reason Tormund has stated. They'd conquer the world. They'd survive. Within a story about the obliteration of families and bloodlines (Rains/Reynes of Castamere), it should be more obvious that the biological imperative is central to the story, there is plenty of historical references for that to be important. In the show, we're witnessing this firsthand with Cersei having lost all her children. She needs another plans, and she's even more determined to create a Lannister legacy. She doesn't even need Jaime around anymore to make this happen. The show might be handing us this storyline - about Cersei GMOing Robert Strong (and possibly Brienne) - because the truth is WORSE in the books, that for generations the Stark women have been subject to genetic engineering experiments. This all ties into the story of the Night's King as well as Craster, who is likely a Stark descendant. Coming back to this, as I just posted the Marvel essay that ties into it. As a prelude to that essay, I want to walk back to Howland Reed for a sec. A few things coming together here: 1) Rhaegar "fell upon" Lyanna somewhere in the Riverlands – not 10 leagues from Harrenhal. Obviously this is well within the range of the Isle of Faces, where Howland had just spent a whole year hanging out with the Green Men. GRRM has said that Howland and the Green Men will play into the upcoming books, so chances are good that Lyanna disappearing near this location is intentional and significant. 2) It’s come up elsewhere that the Green Men – and by association, Howland – may not be all sweetness and light as many readers seem to believe. LmL has done some work on "evil greenseers" and horned lords with relation to this, and there have been a few conversations in Heresy about it. During a recent one about Howland’s odd absence in the current story, Matthew made a couple of neat comments at W that you can read HERE about perhaps Howland undergoing some kind of 'transformation' as a result of his time spent on the IoF, a transformation that may not necessarily be for the better. It seems somewhat reasonable to think that Howland Reed may be *literally* becoming a Green Man himself, and certainly advancing the Green Men agenda. 3) In the early Marvel threads, I discussed Howland having a counterpart named Dr. Druid. Not only is the backstory for Druid nearly identical to Howland’s, he also eventually bails on the Avengers and retreats into solitude because his powers continued to grow stronger and he feared someone co-opting them for evil. Eventually Dr. Druid himself co-opted those powers – they eventually consumed him entirely and he morphed into a really bad dude. I was really intrigued by this aspect of the arc and have been sitting back waiting to see if GRRM would 'borrow' this from Marvel as well as the character parallel. 4) Everybody has differening opinions on the CotF and their real intent for the realms of men. We’ve all had the conversations about the three-fingered tree huggers and whether they are the lost race of happy fairies trying to pass the torch to humans, or the shady AF Gollum type luring men to their doom. Whatever the answer to that, there’s one known: the CoTF and the Green Men have been buds in the past, and have cooperated against their common enemies. The show has left out the Green Men, but we did get that nifty montage of Leaf and her besties creating the Night’s King via some badass old magic, harnessing the power of the weirwood trees to make it happen. Obviously the show conflates plots from the books, so I am curious as to whether the Green Men have been lumped in with the tree-huggers for the show, meaning we will get full separate backstories/actions in the books.
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