Absolutely, I remember plenty of arguments over there on this point.
One of the best timeline of events I've read on any board.
Who would you say her two children are then? I kind of have an idea what you'd say but let's go for it.
I'm trying not to let my biases influence me too much. I'm still fairly convinced that Lyanna gave birth to Jon. My guess is, Jon was Lyanna's first born child. So there is a chance that when Lyanna was kidnapped (or whatever) by Rhaegar she was already pregnant with Jon, or else she conceived with Rhaegar almost immediately. This would fit the timeline of Jon's birth lining up with Dany's conception, in other words sometime before the Battle of the Trident. So four or five months into a pregnancy, and Lyanna is probably starting to lactate. This would also have allowed her to be a nursemaid for Aegon, if indeed Aegon had been smuggled out of King's Landing at this time. This also means that if Lyanna got pregnant a second time, than Rhaegar could definitely not have been the father of the second child. My gut tells me that Lyanna might also be Meera's mother (the fact that Meera's mother is listed as Jyanna in the appendices is awfully suspicious). But I can't really work it out in my head how Howland and Lyanna could have been together during that time period. Unless the Kingsguards had already abandoned Lyanna at that time to travel with Aegon and possibly Jon to the tower of joy, and Howland was the one who actually found Lyanna. Which might make sense since we have no idea what Howland's role was during the war until he accompanies Ned to the tower of joy.
I still think Jon's father being Brandon fits Jon's story arc pretty well. Ned feels a sense of shame and sorrow about Jon (an incestuous relationship between his older brother and sister would definitely cause the sense of shame). Ned also dreams of Lyanna's statute reminding him of the promise in the crypts of Winterfell as the Stone Kings of Winter look at him disapprovingly and their direwolves growl. This would make sense either because he robbed Jon of his place as heir to Winterfell as the first born son of the first born son of Lord Rickard. This fits with why Ned couldn't tell Catelyn because it would give Catelyn even more reason to think of Jon as a threat to her children's inheritance. It also might explain why Jon continues to have dreams of killing Ned and Brandon and taking Winterfell as his own.
Howland Reed is the elephant in the room where Lyanna, Ned and their offspring are concerned. If he hadn't been at the ToJ, Ned would be dead and Bran would never have been born. Jon would probably also be dead without Ned's protection. Bran is the prince of the greenwood; the one who the CotF have been waiting for 200 year, a 'promised prince' and Jon is the 'promised prince' - "Promise me, Ned". There isn't just one promised prince, there are several, including Dany and Aegon.
When Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in the HoU; he says that Aegon is the prince who is promised, he looks at Dany and says there must be one more (prince who is promised). The 3 heads of the dragon are the 3 princes.
"The Seed is strong."
I think that GRRM sometimes uses the ramblings of the unhinged to plant some truths because they will be dismissed outright. We do know that Bran recieves 'visions' as he hovers between life and death. The seed donor in this case, isn't necessarily Robert but Ned or the Stark bloodline.
The 'seed' is the acorn and the oak it grows into.
A corn is an acorn:
Jon is the acorn king:
Jon and Bran are 'two and one'; one can't exist without the other - the king of winter and summer or the oak and the holly king:
corn = cornu – latin for horn - horned lord
• Word Origin
noun, plural cornua
[kawr-noo-uh, -nyoo-uh] (Show IPA)
1.
a horn, especially a bony part that resembles a horn.
In some Wiccan traditions, the Oak King and the Holly King are seen as dual aspects of the Horned God. Each of these twin aspects rules for half the year, battles for the favor of the Goddess, and then retires to nurse his wounds for the next six months, until it is time for him to reign once more.
salemsmoon.wordpress.com/gods/the-horned-god-oak-king-holly-king-and-green-man/The oak tree is strong and the seed is strong. There are too many samples to cite, but here are some. Arya, Bran and Jon are the acorns who will grow into oaks. Arya concentrates on making herself strong; Bran is strong in the power that is given to him and Jon concentrates on making the Watch and Wall strong. He notices the strength in others but not in himself.
A Game of Thrones - Arya II
It is time to begin growing up."
"I will," Arya vowed. She had never loved him so much as she did in that instant. "I can be strong too. I can be as strong as Robb."
A Game of Thrones - Arya III
Calm as still water, she told herself. Strong as a bear. Fierce as a wolverine. She opened her eyes again.
A Clash of Kings - Arya X
"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."
"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would."
A Storm of Swords - Arya V
. She was strong and swift and fierce, and her pack was all around her, her brothers and her sisters. They ran down a frightened horse together, tore its throat out, and feasted. And when the moon broke through the clouds, she threw back her head and howled.
A Storm of Swords - Arya X
She had to be strong now, the way her father told her.
A Feast for Crows - Arya II
"What we offer cannot be bought with gold. The cost is all of you. Men take many paths through this vale of tears and pain. Ours is the hardest. Few are made to walk it. It takes uncommon strength of body and spirit, and a heart both hard and strong."
I have a hole where my heart should be, she thought, and nowhere else to go. "I'm strong. As strong as you. I'm hard."
A Game of Thrones - Bran V
For a moment he felt strong again, and whole. He looked up at the trees and dreamed of climbing them, right up to the very top, with the whole forest spread out beneath him.
A Clash of Kings - Bran I
It was dark amongst the trees, but the comet lit his way, and his feet were sure. He was moving on four good legs, strong and swift, and he could feel the ground underfoot, the soft crackling of fallen leaves, thick roots and hard stones, the deep layers of humus. It was a good feeling.
A Clash of Kings - Bran III
"Here they come," the female said. Meera, some part of him whispered, some wisp of the sleeping boy lost in the wolf dream. "Did you know they would be so big?"
"They will be bigger still before they are grown," the young male said, watching them with eyes large, green, and unafraid. "The black one is full of fear and rage, but the grey is strong . . . stronger than he knows . . . can you feel him, sister?"
A Clash of Kings - Bran V
"The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you're awake, but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong in you."
A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.
A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."
A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
"Then where?" asked Osha.
"White Harbor . . . the Umbers . . . I do not know . . . war everywhere . . . each man against his neighbor, and winter coming . . . such folly, such black mad folly . . ." Maester Luwin reached up and grasped Bran's forearm, his fingers closing with a desperate strength. "You must be strong now. Strong."
A Storm of Swords - Bran I
Prince. The man-sound came into his head suddenly, yet he could feel the rightness of it. Prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. He was strong and swift and fierce, and all that lived in the good green world went in fear of him.
A Storm of Swords - Bran IV
"Why not?"
"The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it . . . old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall."
It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon. Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy. You needn't fear. There are no monsters here.
A Game of Thrones - Jon II
"Who will I practice with?"
"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do …"
A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
Jon remained standing. "It's my father, isn't it?"
The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. "Your father and the king," he rumbled. "I won't lie to you, it's grievous news. I never thought to see another king, not at my age, with Robert half my years and strong as a bull."
A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
"Pycelle makes no mention of them, but doubtless they'll be treated gently. I will ask about them when I write." Mormont shook his head. "This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …" He gave Jon a long shrewd look. "I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy."
A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
Outside, one of the guards looked at him and said, "Be strong, boy. The gods are cruel."
A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII
"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong
A Game of Thrones - Jon IX
Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true.
A Clash of Kings - Jon I
"And his brothers?" Jon asked.
The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."
A Clash of Kings - Jon VII
Jon?
The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .
A Clash of Kings - Jon V
Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."
"Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."
A Clash of Kings - Jon VII
"Was he a good ranger?"
"He was the best of us," said the Halfhand, "and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey."
A Clash of Kings - Jon VII
As if in answer, Ghost struggled to his feet.
"The wolf is strong," the ranger said. "Ebben, water. Stonesnake, your skin of wine. Hold him still, Jon."
A Storm of Swords - Jon II
"I might get her with child."
"Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?"
A Storm of Swords - Jon V
"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall."
"And what if they do? I'd sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t' some weakling by my father."
A Storm of Swords - Jon V
"You say that, but how can you know? What if you were stolen by someone you hated?"
"He'd have t' be quick and cunning and brave t' steal me. So his sons would be strong and smart as well. Why would I hate such a man as that?"
A Storm of Swords - Jon X
"You can kill your enemies," Jon said bluntly, "but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king's peace and obey the laws?"