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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 4, 2017 14:11:51 GMT
Weasel Pie and anyone else who wants to chime in. This is the baggage car from a train of thought in the Marvel forum. From the Comparison of Kings thread in this forum:Notes to be sorted: Daeron carried Dark Sister, Daemon carried Blackfyre Daeron was the academic, Daemon was the leader All the great KNIGHTS of the realm flocked to Daemon Daemon had 7 sons– two, twin boys, killed in battle against the crown; remainder went into exile and supposedly they and all descendants died Blackfyre: Aegon IV Targaryen chose to bestow Blackfyre on his bastard son Daemon Waters, a born warrior, instead of his scholarly legitimate son, the future Daeron II Targaryen. Did Rhaegar wanted to become a warrior because he wanted to earn the right to carry Blackfyre? Could there be another Targaryen out there that is 1) OLDER than Rhaegar and 2) that has a stronger CLAIM than Rhaegar (or any of Aerys' line)? Or, conversely, that Rhaegar himself is the one of dubious claim? cont.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 4, 2017 14:41:07 GMT
Random thoughts, not organized in the least. The BWB’s modus operandi is to win the smallfolk to their cause - they provide protection and justice, the peasants and minor lordlings give them provision, shelter, etc. We’ve seen a group like this before: The Kingswood Brotherhood, an outlaw band led by The Smiling Knight and Simon Toyne. We don’t have a lot of info on the KWB, but the info we do have is very similar. From the Wiki: So, we have the actions of a shining knight of the Kingsguard orchestrating a turnaround and causing the smallfolk to turn away from supporting the KWB and unite with the royal cause instead. Arthur Dayne, the most reputable warrior of the royal forces, slays the Smiling Knight in combat and ends the reign of the KWB. Moving forward to current day, we get the inverse: the actions of a knight not yet of the Kingsguard, Gregor Clegane, drive the smallfolk toward the Brotherhood, and swing allegiance away from the throne. The Mountain and his gang – the royal forces - are raping and pillaging their way through the Riverlands, taking everything from the smallfolk from food to valuables to lives, giving them no rights at all. The Mountain, the most notorious warrior of the royal forces, has slain Ser Beric in combat twice but Beric refuses to stay dead, continuing the reign of the BWB. MASSIVE hint to TSK being 'resurrected' here!!! The "leader" of the outlaw band, killed by the point man of the crown, RISES AGAIN to continue his crusade!!!
Another point of interest here: Sandor Clegane to Arya Stark, after snagging her as she escaped from the BwB. Sandor is the modern echo of Arthur Dayne.
Sandor won the substantial purse in the Tourney of the Hand. He won the gold by protecting a young anointed knight of a major house who had cheated in the joust – Loras Tyrell – against the Mountain, the most notorious warrior of the Lannister forces. The Hound, who refuses to take knightly vows, wins the gold by acting in the vein of a “true knight”, to save the life of an actual knight who acted ignobly. The gold from the tourney purse is Sandor’s; he earned it honestly. However, when he is captured by the Brotherhood and put on trial for his crimes, including killing the innocent friend of the Stark she-wolf, the brothers take his gold (commenting that it must be plunder) and give him a worthless IOU in return. Now compare this to : I for one thought it odd that the wife to the Prince of Dragonstone was traveling through the Kingswood not long after recovering from the difficult birth of her first child, in company of the Lord Commander of the KG and a chest of gold. Why? A few of us speculated that this gold was in fact the “front money” for the Tourney of Harrenhal, supplied to Rhaegar by someone else of means. So the Hound loses whatever is left of his 40K dragons in tourney winnings to an outlaw band, and Rhaegar loses a chest full of dragons very likely designated as prize money for a tourney to an outlaw band - both referred to as The Brotherhood. The Hound chooses to kidnap a Stark she-wolf to try and recoup his loss, while Rhaegar recoups his loss by winning the tourney and crowning the Stark she-wolf QoLaB….and kidnapping her later anyway? Rhaegar is involved peripherally with the KWB (Elia's encounter) and directly with the tourney. Oddly enough, so is House Frey. Merrett Frey is kidnapped and branded by Wenda the White Fawn the KWB, and a Frey squire (most likely a lesser Frey son to boot) is chastised and humiliated at the tourney of HH. A Knight is involved in both scenarios - The Smiling Knight condones Wenda's treatment of Merrett, and the KoTLT actively demands the punishment of the squires. Lyanna Stark was the instigator in the latter. Crackpot: she was the instigator in the former too. Wenda the White Fawn: not much known other than she was young and fair, and liked burning her brand into people's arses. Parallel of note: The Hound no longer watched her as closely as he had. Sometimes he did not seem to care whether she stayed or went, and he no longer bound her up in a cloak at night. One night I'll kill him in his sleep, she told herself, but she never did. One day I'll ride away on Craven, and he won't be able to catch me, she thought, but she never did that either. Where would she go? Winterfell was gone. Her grandfather's brother was at Riverrun, but he didn't know her, no more than she knew him. Maybe Lady Smallwood would take her in at Acorn Hall, but maybe she wouldn't. Besides, Arya wasn't even sure she could find Acorn Hall again. Sometimes she thought she might go back to Sharna's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.
But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all.
Note that Arya emphasizes riding with Gendry....so the real draw to this arrangement is companionship with the BASTARD OF A KING. This is a good fit for TSK as a descendant of the Great Bastard of a king. Also, this could be an inversion - while Arya knows that she will never be accepted into the BwB and will only be used as a pawn, Lyanna could have encountered the opposite with the KwB - finding her real "pack" and perhaps her real love.
**Sharna = innkeep of the Inn of the Kneeling Man: inn in the riverlands located near the spot where Torrhen Stark, King in the North, is said to have bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. After Arya Stark is captured by the brotherhood without banners, she is brought to the inn. Arya's true identity is revealed when Harwin returns. IotKM is in the Riverlands, just northwest of Harrenhal. Lyanna disappeared in the Riverlands, supposedly when Rhaegar and his men "fell upon her". Lyanna's wolf blood got her killed. Arya and Sansa are the split echoes of Lyanna - each representing a path taken or choice made, with the other reflecting the opposite choice. Arya makes the choice not to entertain the idea of being an outlaw with the BwB. She thinks it's something Sansa would like ....Sansa representing an alternate/opposite path of life, particularly the path with a romantic overtone. If Lyanna's story is echoed in both girls, did Lyanna make the Sansa choice? Is Lyanna Stark actually Wenda the White Fawn?
*IF* Lyanna had been sent to serve at court like I suspect that she was, I think she - in some of her wild wolf girl adventures - somehow fell into the Kingswood Brotherhood. She joined their little group for fun and thrills, and later was discovered to be the only daughter of House Stark - her true identity revealed. (It took Harwin - a figure from Arya's "real" life - recognizing her and outing her to the BwB. Could Lyanna have been identified by Elia Martell after the KwB attack on her caravan? Elia could have known Lyanna from her "real life" at court...) Instead of using her to further their agenda, though, the KwB embraced Lyanna Stark and offered her a position in their band.
Alternately, if we follow an inversion path, Lyanna was initially taken hostage by the KwB with full knowledge of who she was. The KwB was known for kidnapping members of noble houses, holding them for ransom - they possibly encountered Lyanna fooling around in the Kingswood, the way wolf girls are wont to do, with intent of ransoming her. EXCEPT, they ended up...liking her. A lot. Liked her spunk and iron so much that they folded her into the Brotherhood. End result: same.
This idea brings together two Marvel arcs as well: Thor's escapades with the Circus of Crime found HERE , and the Swordsman plot within the Conqueror/Madonna/Tree saga HERE.
A fawn: a young deer, in its first year. Also as verb: to produce/birth baby deer. Lyanna in visions: wearing a white dress = symbol of purity and innocence, sad eyes (Theon), kind eyes (Jon), splattered in gore/weeping blood = symbolizing premature death at hands of another Lyanna in recollections: woman-child, wild and willful, courageous, beauty with iron underneath, dead before her time (think a deer killed by a hunter) The meanings associated with the deer combine both soft, gentle qualities with strength and determination: Gentleness, purity of heart Ability to move through life and obstacles with grace Being in touch with inner child, innocence Being sensitive and intuitive Vigilance, ability to change directions quickly Magical ability to regenerate, being in touch with life’s mysteries
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 5, 2017 0:46:31 GMT
Want to insert thoughts about Arya being presumed to be the girl in grey fleeing a marriage. Heh. Melisandre sees the grey girl with a deer in her vision.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 5, 2017 1:08:32 GMT
Couple things about deer.
A son watches his father skin a deer while he gets lectured about the family legacy - on the show this is Tywin/Jaime, in the book this is Randyll/Sam. Such a graphic image might have meaning.
"So. There is your choice. The Night's Watch"—he reached inside the deer, ripped out its heart, and held it in his fist, red and dripping—"or this."
AGoT Jon IV
Swift as a deer. Part of Arya's litany of sayings/maneuvers learned from Syrio Forel.
The Queen of Thorns calls Sansa a deer surrounded by wolves. Sansa corrects her to call them lions.
Bran and Summer seem to have a favorite meal - deer. This passage is... bizarre in context. A fight over the deer, involving a prince.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 5, 2017 2:43:26 GMT
Bran and Summer seem to have a favorite meal - deer. This passage is... bizarre in context. A fight over the deer, involving a prince. And we get the nod to *something* Starky here, too - The wolf prince ringed by eight companions - nine wolves. Nine weirwoods in a rough circle beyond the Wall, where Jon and Sam swear their vows to the Watch. Nine iron swords on a bronze circlet, the crown of the Old Kings of Winter. Very cool catch! And of course there's the big ol' heaping pile of symbolism in the very first chapter involving the dang stag and the direwolf.... Personally, I think we have a massive amount of Old Gods reference with the deer to check out, particularly in relation to Green Men/Horned Lords. And, if we want to go full tilt and look at the possibility of a TSK resurrection - exactly as we see with Beric - so that he can be "used" as a vessel for a higher being with a greater purpose, then we should take a look at what GOD might be at the helm of that, 'cause it ain't Rh'llor. Also, nice that Randyll is telling Sam to choose between the NW (BLACK) or the bleeding heart (RED). Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 5, 2017 3:23:37 GMT
Also, before I lose the thought:
Rhaegar traveled with 6 trusted companions in his Fellowship of the Riverlands - seven men total. If you were thinking that you might encounter some old and mystical power - the Old Gods, say - doesn't it make sense that you sortof arm yourself in your faith and have your retinue be the "correct" number of people? 7 is a holy number, both in Westeros and real life, and Rhaegar brought his "closest friends and confidants" on this quest, meaning they all knew what they were looking for. I'm not convinced that Rhaegar had put together this posse just to find his new girlfriend. He was expecting something...bigger.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 5, 2017 19:49:52 GMT
Note that Arya emphasizes riding with Gendry....so the real draw to this arrangement is companionship with the BASTARD OF A KING. This is a good fit for TSK as a descendant of the Great Bastard of a king. Also, this could be an inversion - while Arya knows that she will never be accepted into the BwB and will only be used as a pawn, Lyanna could have encountered the opposite with the KwB - finding her real "pack" and perhaps her real love. I had done some work with the Smiling Knight as well and drew connections to Robert Baratheon. I'll have to go back and recheck my notes and come back to this.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2017 0:38:10 GMT
I had done some work with the Smiling Knight as well and drew connections to Robert Baratheon. I'll have to go back and recheck my notes and come back to this. I think I remember - something about Robert belly-laughing all the time while still being brutal = Smiling Knight? I agree that there is a Robert connection, and worked out something offline today that will blend into that. Will post after kids in bed. Found a couple of things from you via search:
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2017 4:01:57 GMT
All right, I may not be able to finish this all tonight, because I am just wiped for some reason.
Last night as I was getting ready for bed, I had a eureka moment, because what better time to have one than 11pm when I need to get up early for work the next day, right. Anyway, the thought struck like lightning from Thor's own mighty hammer and I can't believe that I didn't make this connection until now. Maybe someone else did and I ignored it, but now that I have it in context with the Smiling Knight, I see it.
Lyanna's story has a parallel with Dany. I'm going to lay out my thoughts - rife with my own speculation, of course - and then get to the point about Robert and his echo in the Smiling Knight.
Dany, a 13yo girl, is being given over to a Dothraki horselord in a marriage arranged for political expediecy. Drogo is a hulkish brute of a dude, interested mostly in drinking/hunting/fighting/fucking, not necessarily in that order and sometimes all at once. This marriage was arranged by her brother Viserys and third-party "foster father" with mysterious motives, Illyrio Mopatis.
Lyanna, a 14ish year old horselady, is betrothed to marry Robert Baratheon, most likely for political expediency. Robert is a hulkish brute, interested mostly in drinking/hunting/fighting/fucking, not necessarily in that order and sometimes all at once. This marriage was most likely planned by third party Jon Arryn, her brother's foster father with mysterious motives, and agreed to by Rickard for alliance reasons. We don't know Brandon's thoughts on the subject. More on that.
Dany doesn’t want to marry Drogo but she is forced into it as a means of furthering her brother's plans to gain an army and reclaim his lost throne. Jorah Mormont is the calming presence, telling Dany that Drogo is actually a good dude and all will be well. Dany sucks it up, seals the deal, and goes to live her life amongst the Dothraki as the wife of a Khal. In the early days of her marriage, Drogo is...errr...not the kindest or most attentive guy when it comes to the bedroom, but eventually she lays her Lyseni kama sutra on him and he chills out.
Lyanna seems to have reservations about Robert but most likely will go ahead as planned because that's what good girls of medieval cultures do. Also whatever plans the STAB alliance is cooking up. Ned of course is the bridge brother telling Lyanna that Robert is actually a good dude and all will be well. If I am correct about Lyanna’s next location, she went to serve at court to prepare her for life as wife (and perhaps future queen?) of Bobby B. I will spare you my brothel theory...for now.
Over time, Dany grows to love Drogo, embraces her new life and assimilates to her new culture. Eventually she realizes her brother is an pyschotic incompetent shit and allows her husband to kill him via golden bucket challenge.
Unfortunately, we have nothing on Lyanna here - the trail goes cold, and we really have no idea what she did up to her disappearance and eventual death. I'll come back to this.
Dany gets pregnant with Drogo’s child; baby Rhaego – The Stallion that Mounts the World – is legitimate through their marriage.
After Rhaego - a half-human monster baby - dies in blood magic ceremony at the beginning of the conflict, she kills Drogo with her own hands. Dragons hatch. Magic is reborn.
Some time later, after she is reborn in the Dothraki sea and starts asserting her independence and grrl powah, she meets the bad boy lead of a mercenary company and develops the major hots for him. Dany uses Daario as her favorite sex puppet even though she knows that soon she has to quit screwing around and go live the responsible life of a queen. She wishes things could be different, but if wishes were horses, sorefoot cart kings would ride and all that. She plans to go ahead and marry someone else she doesn't love for her own political gain and will kick Hot Daario to the curb once she does; it is possible that she is unknowingly pregnant with his child.
***
So I know that because I laid out the similarities to Robert up there, the first inclination will be to say, "ZOMG Robert was TOTES involved and the father of Lya's baby!!!1!!1!"....very exciting I know, but don't stop reading yet.
I want to go back to the Wheel of Time idea, and the notion that it is reversing: the first door on the right is the last door on the left. Let's walk this backwards.
If Lyanna's story is the reverse of Dany's, what do we get? Not a perfect match, of course, primarily because Lyanna didn't live long enough, but have a gander:
First, she has plans to marry someone she doesn't love, for political power. Robert.
Next, while waiting on that marriage to come to pass, she meets her bad boy fuck toy, has fun with the fling and envisions living this way forever even though she knows she can't because obligations. Possibly gets pregnant with his child. Smiling Knight.
Last, she gets horse-traded by her brother to a royal stranger in exchange for....
And this is where things start to get funky. And where I will leave off tonight, because I'm exhausted. But not before I give you this quote, because it's important and I will be returning to it.
Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 6, 2017 12:53:34 GMT
Eventually she realizes her brother is an pyschotic incompetent shit and allows her husband to kill him via golden bucket challenge. Unfortunately, we have nothing on Lyanna here We have Brandon's painful death at the hands of King Aerys for threatening the crown prince = Viserys' death at the hands of Khal Drogo for threatening the crown prince in utero.
This is such good stuff. I've talked about some parallels between Dany and Lyanna a couple of times, but mostly in relation to Dany possibly being a Stark because of the intensely wargish nature of her relationship with her Silver, and of course the obvious connection with horses.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 6, 2017 13:08:48 GMT
Doing a bit of reading about the Smiling Knight, here are the passages involved:
Sam II ASOS
Jaime VIII ASOS
Jaime IV AFFC
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2017 13:26:13 GMT
We have Brandon's painful death at the hands of King Aerys for threatening the crown prince = Viserys' death at the hands of Khal Drogo for threatening the crown prince in utero.Yep, getting there! None of this is fully fleshed out, fwiw. I'm putting it together as I go so there will be mistakes and backtracking I'm sure, but it's starting to solidify somewhat. One thing I want to say about Robert - he can be associated with the Smiling Knight because he's a link in the "Lyanna's Lovers" chain of Robert/TSK/... , just like we see with Drogo/Daario/Hizdahr. However, even though he shares traits with Drogo, I *think* Robert is Lyanna's future that never was. Just like Dany was planning to settle down with Hizzy and bear him sons even though she cared nothing for him personally, Lyanna would have made a life with Robert as well: "Shall I … kiss you again?" he asked when it was over. "No." On her terrace, in her bathing pool, the little fish would nibble at her legs as she soaked. Even they kissed with more fervor than Hizdahr zo Loraq. "I do not love you." Hizdahr shrugged. "That may come, in time. It has been known to happen that way." Not with us, she thought. Not whilst Daario is so close. It's him I want, not you.
This makes complete sense to me if Lyanna knows she's got a Bobby B. wedding in her future, while she's having a thing with Smiling Knight. Dany knows Hizzy doesn't really love her either, that he's more interested in his dancing girls and such just like Robert loves his brothel girls and tavern wenches.At the same time, there's this contradiction that I'm struggling with: "We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow." He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind. There would be no son for Loraq, no heir to unite dragon and harpy. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Only then would her womb quicken once again …
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 6, 2017 13:44:34 GMT
Re: Jaime IV AFFC - Jaime is at Castle Darry, where the debacle with Arya, Joffrey, the Hound and the Butcher's Boy took place. Tyrion notices that the Targ Tapestries were taken down and hidden away in anticipation of Robert's visit. Gregor Clegane (impersonating his brother by using the Hound helm) later led an assault on the Castle, killing the last male Darry. The Lannister/Bolton forces then lay siege and torch the Castle, killing all prisoners. Joff gives the castle to Lancel. Lancel has married Amerei Frey (daughter of Merrett Frey and Mariya Darry, sister to Fat Walda who marries Roose, sister to Little Walder who is killed at Winterfell) but has no intention of consummating the marriage. I also think GRRM gave us a "in a previous generation..." echo by the inclusion of the daughter of Merrett Frey, famous bully bested by the White Fawn, in the exact spot where Joffrey, famous bully, was bested by Arya Stark.What also strikes me here is that a Brotherhood that is terrifying the lands is led by... an imposter, none other than the Mountain, who is compared to the Smiling Knight, the Mountain of Jaime's boyhood. So I can fairly say that we might be led to believe that the Smiling Knight is a certain person, but GRRM is playing with us, because the true Smiling Knight might not be the man who was killed in the Kingswood by Ser Arthur Dayne. We need to find an imposter as the suspect. Or bonus points for one that later joins the ranks of the undead Also that there is fear of Beric's brotherhood who are in the company of a mysterious woman. We later learn this is Cat Stark/Lady SH, a revived dead woman motivated by vengeance because of the murder of her son. Lady SH of course later kills Merrett. There is probably more at work in this chapter, still poking around. I'm wondering if the Targ tapestries hidden away at a later-torched Castle are supposed to reflect something at Winterfell, since there are several Winterfell/Castle Darry parallels here. Something hidden from the King in order not to upset him? Heh. Damn. And of course we have Willem Darry, relation to the main house unspecified, who accompanied Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, then fled with Vis and Dany to (the story is) Braavos. So off the cuff I'm wondering if Castle Darry has a red door. Heh. The inclusion of all these elements makes this theory officially not crackpot.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 6, 2017 14:07:58 GMT
Annnd a Robert Baratheon connection might be that his bastard Gendry has freakin Bull helmet? Does this mirror the White Bull saving Elia from the Brotherhood in another story that doesn't mention the Smiling Knight? Gerold is wounded by Ulmer - which brings us back to the first mention of the Smiling Knight, by Sam at the Wall. Gerold was there when Brandon and Rickard were killed. He disappears after being sent to find Rhaegar, only to reappear at the ToJ.
Curious if he may have been sent out undercover to infiltrate the KB? Thinking out loud.
The final death-scene version of the Smiling Knight is defined by his coveting of Dawn, which I think is a significant factor in identifying him. I mentioned before that I had two gnawing ideas about TSK, one that the visual of the name is so similar to The Knight of the Laughing Tree, which you know I think involved warging (and possibly Bran). My other thought was that TSK, whoever he was, was the father of Darkstar, who would obviously have a vested interest in getting their hands on Dawn.
I know those thoughts don't quite fit here but maybe they serve the narrative here somehow.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 6, 2017 14:18:57 GMT
a son whose father is the harpy A Harpy is a spirit of the storm winds. Just sayin. Also a chimera/hybrid.
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