|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 2:29:33 GMT
This is a spin off of Some Pig No Doubt 's The Conqueror, the Madonna, and the Tree thread where she asserted: Then I said: And Weasel Pie said: And Some Pig again: Also, inviting freyfamilyreunion because of the Brandon + Lyanna angle. Proceed...
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 2:30:56 GMT
I'd like to point out that the blue rose was not the baby Bael left. The blue roses of Winterfell are flowers - so if you pluck one they die. When the Children or other believers of the old gods die they join the godhead. The white walkers and wights, which are undead, have blue eyes which seems to connect ice magic to their creation, which could be a connection back to the godhead and the act of dying in order to resurrect someone to a different sort of life. Brandon as Coldhands is someone resurrected to a different sort of life.
Duran, the Lord of Storm's End took the maidenhead of a divine being, Elenei, daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind. Elenei chose to give up her maidenhead and marry Duran, and that choice included giving up her divinity and becoming mortal. Thus the act of relinquishing her maidenhead, her "blue rose" led to her mortality. The story does not mention a child. I think we're so focused on the child that Bael left that we overlook the rest of the story. Recall that Littlefinger blames the "singer" in Lyssa's death, but we know it wasn't his fault, which makes me wonder if the Bael story isn't a coverup for incest?
Could it be then that the blue rose is more closely associated with sacrificing "something" in order to achieve a different sort of life? "Death" has to be included in order to achieve this different sort of life. Elenei gave up her magical divinity and became a mortal human. She's a parallel inversion to the Other that the 13th Lord Commander saw from atop the Wall, and Duran built walls that could withstand angry gods. Later on we learn the Nights King's followers are sacrificing to the Others. What were they sacrificing? I think we can confidently conclude they were sacrificing human lives, and maybe even children if we're to recall Craster's "I'm a godly man" belief that caused him to sacrifice his sons.
It's the Stark blood that is special for ice magic, and while I acknowledge that it could be meaningful for Rhaegar to want a child with skinchanging ability, it would be a tidy reversal to take an undead father and a human mother, which is a reversal of Duran and Elenei AND the 13th LC and an Other, you might create a divine being.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 7, 2017 2:45:01 GMT
LOL! Love the title!
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 7, 2017 3:12:52 GMT
Totally on board, because I believe Jon's father needs to be something or someone magical, supernatural, god-like etc. I thought Lyanna was the one who was Coldhanded - whatever that means - but the thought of a Coldhands being the babydaddy is good too!
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 3:17:23 GMT
The two threads are overlapping...
I think we're making progress on many sides, because the answer to Jon's parents will work for more than one story. For example:
1) Lyanna + Other = Jon - works if Other = undead Brandon 2) Starkcest - works cuz Brandon + Lyanna 3) Coldhands = Brandon 4) Brandon is a time traveler 5) Bael plucked the maid of Winterfell - works if Coldhands = Bael 6) Blue flower grows in chink in Wall - works if Lyanna and/or Brandon found a way to connect after death 7) Pregnant Lyanna threatened - maybe even injured with a sword - parallel to Viserys threatening Daenerys 8) Jon has more of the North in him - if Brandon is Coldhands and he's his father - well, I'd say this is a given!
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 7, 2017 3:20:16 GMT
1) Lyanna + Other = Jon - works if Other = undead Brandon 2) Starkcest - works cuz Brandon + Lyanna 3) Coldhands = Brandon 4) Brandon is a time traveler 5) Bael plucked the maid of Winterfell - works if Coldhands = Bael 6) Blue flower grows in chink in Wall - works if Lyanna and/or Brandon found a way to connect after death 7) Pregnant Lyanna threatened - maybe even injured with a sword - parallel to Viserys threatening Daenerys 1). For LOJ, I didn't have a specific Other in mind but I suspected whoever we call the Great Other. Also included in that idea is the Night King, if he's still alive. And by extension yes Coldhands, because it seems to me that the NK was "coldhanded" when he gave his corpse bride his seed and his soul. Whether the Coldhands we know in the book is the NK or Brandon, it's all good to me, as long as Lyanna's babydaddy was one of these supernatural ice men. 2). I'm warming to the idea of Starkcest 3). Totally open to CH being Brandon 4). You KNOW I think Bran is a Timelord 5). Not sure here 6). Going in another direction here 7). Yes - especially if she was carrying a magic baby
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 7, 2017 3:33:00 GMT
I am going to finish working up the Smiley (I call him Smiley) parallels w/r/t Dany and Drogo, and then see if I can plug and play Brandon into Smiley's spot to still get to the same place. I'm thinking that might be possible...
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 3:38:57 GMT
I'm thinking the Tunnels between Winterfell and the Wall may be the "chink" if chink means an opening or passageway.
The timing is off though, because Brandon was alive when Lyanna went missing. And Lyanna would need to visit Brandon in the crypts after his death. Ideas?
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 7, 2017 3:45:04 GMT
I'm thinking the Tunnels between Winterfell and the Wall may be the "chink" if chink means an opening or passageway. The timing is off though, because Brandon was alive when Lyanna went missing. And Lyanna would need to visit Brandon in the crypts after his death. Ideas? I've brought up the tunnels and how they could be intepreted as the chink/vulnerability of the Wall, so yes. I'm trying to place Brandon too but don't forget that BRAN could also be Coldhands in a roundabout way. Had a crazy thought that the Night King's Bride was Lyanna Stark.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 3:56:34 GMT
I'm thinking the Tunnels between Winterfell and the Wall may be the "chink" if chink means an opening or passageway. The timing is off though, because Brandon was alive when Lyanna went missing. And Lyanna would need to visit Brandon in the crypts after his death. Ideas? I've brought up the tunnels and how they could be intepreted as the chink/vulnerability of the Wall, so yes. I'm trying to place Brandon too but don't forget that BRAN could also be Coldhands in a roundabout way. Had a crazy thought that the Night King's Bride was Lyanna Stark. Yes, If Brandon is Coldhands and he impregnated Lyanna, then it's a reversal of the Nights King and his Other bride. He also works as Bael, because he's north of the Wall.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 7, 2017 4:02:21 GMT
I think we need to make a timeline since we know Brandon was in the Riverlands slicing open Littlefinger then ditching his fiancee to threaten Rhaegar in KL.
How are you thinking Brandon was Coldhanded?
And no I was thinking literally - that Lyanna somehow found a way to go back in time, and that changed her into the Ice Queen. Random idea.
But they're related because I'm wondering if time-travel causes the Coldhands condition? Surely Coldhands isn't the only version of whatever he is?
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 4:15:35 GMT
Maybe this time travel business with Bran is how Some Pig described Kang the time-traveling Conqueror where he leaves different versions of himself in time?
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 7, 2017 4:27:09 GMT
Maybe this time travel business with Bran is how Some Pig described Kang the time-traveling Conqueror where he leaves different versions of himself in time? I think he actually needs to possess an existing body, he could stay in it til it dies, or he could leave it - and leave something of himself in them, the same way he senses other skinchangers in the ravens in BRs cave. And I think GRRM gave us an idea of how that would work, between hodoring Hodor and the Varamyr prologue. We also know that creatures get used to being skinchanged, it gets easier for them. A pet theory of mine about Howland is that he was trained to allow himself to be skinchanged through the weirnet. So I don't think there are different versions of Bran, I think Bran has skinchanged many, many people, sometimes taking them over for their whole lives, sometimes temporarily, like Hodor.
|
|
|
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 7, 2017 13:00:44 GMT
I'm not sure if this is exactly on point, but these passages struck me last night as I was doing a reread of AGOT. First we have this passage
It's interesting that Bran states that this was his most disturbing crow dream. Even more disturbing than when he was falling, and more disturbing when he was climbing the tower and coming upon the Lannister like gargoyles. Then we have the reference to Hodor. With all the horse imagery surrounding Lyanna and Brandon, I wonder if Hodor, being a stable boy may be somehow associated with them. Perhaps Hodor came upon Brandon and Lyanna in the stables like the serving girl who came upon Jaime and Cersei. Perhaps they warged Hodor to serve as a lookout for them? (Hold the Door?)
Then they descend into the passage and we get this:
So Bran has a dream where Ned divulges something about Jon. Probably the same thing that had been haunting Ned about Lyanna's promise to him. Whatever it is, it's extremely disturbing. Perhaps this is symbolically played out when they go into the crypt. As Luwin peers into Ned's crypt, perhaps Shaggydog represents the awful secret that Ned has been keeping (or perhaps that Ned had even repressed). Then immediately after the secret is unleashed, the torch immediately goes to Brandon's statue. Then interestingly enough the torch blackens the legs of Brandon's statue (almost akin to the blackened extremities of Coldhands...)
|
|
|
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 7, 2017 13:16:16 GMT
I'd like to point out that the blue rose was not the baby Bael left. The blue roses of Winterfell are flowers - so if you pluck one they die. When the Children or other believers of the old gods die they join the godhead. The white walkers and wights, which are undead, have blue eyes which seems to connect ice magic to their creation, which could be a connection back to the godhead and the act of dying in order to resurrect someone to a different sort of life. Brandon as Coldhands is someone resurrected to a different sort of life. Duran, the Lord of Storm's End took the maidenhead of a divine being, Elenei, daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind. Elenei chose to give up her maidenhead and marry Duran, and that choice included giving up her divinity and becoming mortal. Thus the act of relinquishing her maidenhead, her " blue rose" led to her mortality. The story does not mention a child. I think we're so focused on the child that Bael left that we overlook the rest of the story. Recall that Littlefinger blames the "singer" in Lyssa's death, but we know it wasn't his fault, which makes me wonder if the Bael story isn't a coverup for incest? Could it be then that the blue rose is more closely associated with sacrificing "something" in order to achieve a different sort of life? " Death" has to be included in order to achieve this different sort of life. Elenei gave up her magical divinity and became a mortal human. She's a parallel inversion to the Other that the 13th Lord Commander saw from atop the Wall, and Duran built walls that could withstand angry gods. Later on we learn the Nights King's followers are sacrificing to the Others. What were they sacrificing? I think we can confidently conclude they were sacrificing human lives, and maybe even children if we're to recall Craster's "I'm a godly man" belief that caused him to sacrifice his sons. It's the Stark blood that is special for ice magic, and while I acknowledge that it could be meaningful for Rhaegar to want a child with skinchanging ability, it would be a tidy reversal to take an undead father and a human mother, which is a reversal of Duran and Elenei AND the 13th LC and an Other, you might create a divine being.Yes I agree that the blue rose never stood for the child. In the story, the blue rose was left as a payment for the Stark daughter who was stolen. It was her pillow that the blue rose was found on. Basically the Bael tale is a retelling of the tale of Lan the clever. Through deceptive means, the trickster finds a way to substitute his paternal bloodline for the royal paternal bloodline. Looking at it this way, the blue rose can stand for the lost "pure" Stark bloodline, the unbroken paternal line, that was lost when Lord Stark had no sons.
|
|