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Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 18:21:24 GMT
I'd like to point out that the blue rose was not the baby Bael left. The blue roses of Winterfell are flowers - so if you pluck one they die. When the Children or other believers of the old gods die they join the godhead. The white walkers and wights, which are undead, have blue eyes which seems to connect ice magic to their creation, which could be a connection back to the godhead and the act of dying in order to resurrect someone to a different sort of life. Brandon as Coldhands is someone resurrected to a different sort of life. Duran, the Lord of Storm's End took the maidenhead of a divine being, Elenei, daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind. Elenei chose to give up her maidenhead and marry Duran, and that choice included giving up her divinity and becoming mortal. Thus the act of relinquishing her maidenhead, her " blue rose" led to her mortality. The story does not mention a child. I think we're so focused on the child that Bael left that we overlook the rest of the story. Recall that Littlefinger blames the "singer" in Lyssa's death, but we know it wasn't his fault, which makes me wonder if the Bael story isn't a coverup for incest? Could it be then that the blue rose is more closely associated with sacrificing "something" in order to achieve a different sort of life? " Death" has to be included in order to achieve this different sort of life. Elenei gave up her magical divinity and became a mortal human. She's a parallel inversion to the Other that the 13th Lord Commander saw from atop the Wall, and Duran built walls that could withstand angry gods. Later on we learn the Nights King's followers are sacrificing to the Others. What were they sacrificing? I think we can confidently conclude they were sacrificing human lives, and maybe even children if we're to recall Craster's "I'm a godly man" belief that caused him to sacrifice his sons. It's the Stark blood that is special for ice magic, and while I acknowledge that it could be meaningful for Rhaegar to want a child with skinchanging ability, it would be a tidy reversal to take an undead father and a human mother, which is a reversal of Duran and Elenei AND the 13th LC and an Other, you might create a divine being.Yes I agree that the blue rose never stood for the child. In the story, the blue rose was left as a payment for the Stark daughter who was stolen. It was her pillow that the blue rose was found on. Basically the Bael tale is a retelling of the tale of Lan the clever. Through deceptive means, the trickster finds a way to substitute his paternal bloodline for the royal paternal bloodline. Looking at it this way, the blue rose can stand for the lost "pure" Stark bloodline, the unbroken paternal line, that was lost when Lord Stark had no sons. Perhaps, but right now I am leaning towards the blue rose as being symbolic of the sacrifice needed in order to resurrect or produce someone to a different sort of life. With regards to whichever King that was mentioned in the Wolves of Winterfell novella (that hasn't been released yet), the plot is an ailing Lord with only daughters. No male heir. But somehow one of his daughter is pregnant and I believe the premise is to credit (or blame) a Bael type singer. But, just like when Littlefinger blamed the singer for killing Lyssa, we know that was a lie. So I suspect that the daughter gets pregnant by her father, but then to hide the incest they blame a singer. The Stark incest is what creates a baby with a "different sort of life"...a magic baby. Much like Weasel suspects of Jon being the son of Lyanna and an Other (father). This thread is exploring the possibility that Coldhands is the Other father, because he's also Lyanna's brother Brandon. Think about the description of Coldhands and how he wears a scarf. Now recall how Brandon Stark died. King Aerys had a special strangling machine from Tyrosh that he connected Brandon to and left a sword just out of reach. He strangled himself trying to reach the sword so he could cut his father Rickard loose from his fiery torture.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 9, 2017 14:43:40 GMT
I suspect that the daughter gets pregnant by her father If Craster breeds incest sons for the Others, then the Starks breed incest daughters for the Others? I hated even typing that.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 9, 2017 16:07:33 GMT
If Craster breeds incest sons for the Others, then the Starks breed incest daughters for the Others? I hated even typing that. I like it. Issue: Craster does it on the regular, and purposely keeps a closed genetic loop by breeding with his own daughters. The Starks on the other hand have married into houses all over the north. However...like I said before, Lyanna is the first semi-incestual daughter product over the past 100+ years. Perhaps Rickard got a little too close for comfort in the eyes of the Old Gods by marrying his first cousin? And then, if he produced a daughter (which hadn't been done in a long time) and that daughter then engaged in full-blown sibling incest... Maybe this is what the Stark kneelers have forgotten? There's consequences for incest? You have to pay a price to "get right with the gods"?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 9, 2017 16:22:21 GMT
Throwing a related idea in here, since freyfamilyreunion mentioned some more of the Fevre Dream (by GRRM) novel, in the context of the protagonist of that novel creating a potion to "cure" vampires. Here the protagonist talks about how vampires have a super hard time breeding, and that their women often end up dead because of the birthing process. So my speculative thinking here in relation to the OP is that if Coldhands was able to breed, he's need a specific kind of woman - someone more like him? - and specific kinds of circumstances. However this idea - that the Others have a very narrow window of breeding opportunities and that it's essentially lethal to the females of their race - supports many ideas we've been kicking around. Makes me wonder about that "bed of blood" thing. Pretty sure we (of alternate-thoughtdom in the community) believe Lyanna's bloody bed was no simple case of childbirth. Since we also know Old Turtle recycles ideas, it's not far off for me to say this confirms that Lyanna was selected for breeding purposes - as many of us suspected all along. I'll transcribe this out when I have time - I have a few threads to add this where it's relevant - but here's the passage I'm referring to from Fevre Dream.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 9, 2017 16:39:54 GMT
Well...the mother direwolf was similarly ripped open, but with an antler. Whoa. I know I don't have a lot of support from people on the forums for my belief that Robert was responsible for Lyanna's death, but the antler symbolism in the dead mother direwolf does. The symbolism also fits the way Viserys threatened a pregnant Dany.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 9, 2017 16:52:18 GMT
Wow.
And, uh...
"My race was very long-lived, but few in number."
"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them.
And
"The males of my race only feel desire when the female enters heat, and that happens but rarely - most frequently when male and female have shared a kill together."
I can't find quotes but this reminds me of Varamyr when he's inside One-Eye. And then there's this: Before Mance, Varamyr Sixskins had been a lord of sorts. He lived alone in a hall of moss and mud and hewn logs that had once been Haggon's, attended by his beasts. A dozen villages did him homage in bread and salt and cider, offering him fruit from their orchards and vegetables from their gardens. His meat he got himself. Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he'd cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Runts. Small, puny things, like Lump, and not one with the gift.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 9, 2017 16:54:49 GMT
Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he'd cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Runts. Small, puny things, like Lump, and not one with the gift.
oh man. So it takes a man with the gift AND a woman with the gift. Craster IS the parallel here - Starkcest had to happen.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 9, 2017 16:58:57 GMT
The pair of centaurs. Half human, half horse.
GRRM has said that Ned's siblings weren't wargs....which technically is correct, because they didn't use wolves. But they can still be skinchangers. Lyanna - horse, Brandon - also horse, Benjen - raven, Ned - ?
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 9, 2017 17:20:43 GMT
I agree that GRRM is a tricksy bird saying they weren't wargs! Ned was sent to ward with John Arryn at a pretty young age. Wasn't he 9 or 10? Maybe he didn't develop his skinchanging ability, because he wasn't connected to an animal. I can see how Benjen became connected to Mormont's raven, because he was around it all the time?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 9, 2017 20:22:21 GMT
placeholder to muse on idea of UnLya, UnBrandon, kissing in a TREE....
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 11, 2017 2:35:13 GMT
placeholder to muse on idea of UnLya, UnBrandon, kissing in a TREE.... It did occur to me that GRRM likes referencing abduction myths. The Westeros fanboys and fangirls picked up on the tale of Hades and Persephone for Lyanna's abduction. But it occurred to me that there is an abduction story that fits Rhaegar much better. The attempted abduction of Cyrene by Apollo (a much closer analog to Rhaegar than Hades), where Cyrene escaped by being turned into a tree. Another one that makes me raise my eye a bit, is the rape of Demeter by her brother Poseidon, where both participants are disguised as horses during the rape. And Lyanna and Brandon were both half-horses.
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